The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Flying for free to build hours

Old 4th Nov 2020, 06:59
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by DownIn3Green View Post
Flying "for free" does not make one a "scab".
it's not the way to go, but who among us hasn't ferried an airplane or 2 for a few beers after?
Lighten up to the newbies.
Sorry but no. This person wants to displace another newbie getting an opportunity to gain some experience and being properly rewarded for it, as humble as that reward maybe. He is not talking about a one of ferry.
deja vu is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2020, 12:11
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 970
Originally Posted by nigelsomers View Post
To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.
You're welcome.

It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?

Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.
Clare Prop is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2020, 12:58
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 5,374
The other professions you mentioned are independent contractors. In aviation, it’s the nature of the business that you are always an employee. Totally different situations.
Checkboard is online now  
Old 4th Nov 2020, 13:13
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,739
Sorry but no. This person wants to displace another newbie getting an opportunity to gain some experience and being properly rewarded for it, as humble as that reward maybe.
Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2020, 19:27
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 98
Get an FIC rating and start from the bottom. Don't work for free. A prostitute wouldn't work for free, you have a professional qualification.
Bloated Stomach is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2020, 00:10
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?
You get the experience through persistence and networking, NOT by undermining your colleagues as you contribute to a race for the bottom.
Lapon is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2020, 01:55
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 970
Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?


The same skills that are required in any career.

Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.
Clare Prop is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2020, 02:05
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: australia
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
The same skills that are required in any career.

Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.
And yet, as quoted by several posters above, they appear to be the ones that have surged ahead and got into the majors ahead of everyone else...
mikewil is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2020, 09:18
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by mikewil View Post
And yet, as quoted by several posters above, they appear to be the ones that have surged ahead and got into the majors ahead of everyone else...
They are probably the first to bitch and moan about everything when they do get to the majors too.
Lapon is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2020, 11:58
  #70 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Darwin
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by Checkboard View Post
The other professions you mentioned are independent contractors. In aviation, it’s the nature of the business that you are always an employee. Totally different situations.
That is true although I did check with Fair Work and if it's "vocational" then it's legal to work for free, whether you are an employee or a contractor.
nigelsomers is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2020, 12:06
  #71 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Darwin
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
You're welcome.

It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?

Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.
Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).
nigelsomers is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 00:28
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 1,934
Originally Posted by nigelsomers View Post
Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).
I don’t know much about VET, but you’re telling me that you pay the same interest rate that a bank would charge? If not, then yes, we are subsidising you.

I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?

You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.

What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.

Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.

What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.

It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.

Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.
morno is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 00:49
  #73 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Darwin
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by morno View Post
I don’t know much about VET, but you’re telling me that you pay the same interest rate that a bank would charge? If not, then yes, we are subsidising you.

I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?

You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.

What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.

Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.

What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.

It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.

Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.
I sense your overreaction and paranoia that by offering to work for free (remember, initially!), that I am somehow effecting how much you are getting paid, "degrading" the profession, etc. I'm blown away by how wildly insecure some of the pilots are here about a few of us in my group that are looking at offering to fly for free when in other industries, it's normal. In other industries, working for free on a probationary period demonstrates dedication.

Please understand that none of us want to work for free. Some of us will be eating into our savings while we fly for free. We just feel we have no other choice to get a break in the industry, so we are going ahead with it.

Yes I did my research before getting into this industry but no amount of research prepared for the current pandemic. Flying for free probably wouldn't have been an option pre-pandemic but the economics have changed so we'll do a resume drop and see what happens.

nigelsomers is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 01:36
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the detent
Posts: 517
Nigel's a scab. So is anyone else trying to rationalize working for free.

You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.
kingRB is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 01:45
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,739
You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.
However in reality that doesn't happen. You rock up at the twin operator with your 100+ hours of free/paid twin time and the twin operators says, "oh great someone who meets my minimum experience levels" You're hired. After a year there you have a job in a regional or doing mining charter in a twin turboprop. Next thing you know you're flying a jet. Meanwhile all your mates are still fighting over who does a ferry in the Baron to get some twin time.

End of the day noone cares how you got your experience as long as it isn't fake whether you got paid or not is irrelevant. That's just the reality of the situation. Aviation isn't a "good bloke" competition or who took the moral high ground it's all about who has the experience.

Further to all this would you blacklist AMES/LAMES/IT Professionals/Accountants/Lawyers/Plumbers/Carpenters who have offered their services for free just to get flying jobs? Are they scabs as well? How would the local accountant feel that he lost a client because some pilot/accountant did the accounts for free so that he can fly?

Last edited by neville_nobody; 6th Nov 2020 at 01:58.
neville_nobody is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 02:01
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by nigelsomers View Post
Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).
Hard to imagine anyone being so unaware! Aviation has always had more than its share of oxygen thieves, so why is this a surprise?
deja vu is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 02:16
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by deja vu View Post
Hard to imagine anyone being so unaware! Aviation has always had more than its share of oxygen thieves, so why is this a surprise?
Its also hard to believe that there are the occasional posters here attempting to justify it too. Presumably some sort of scab themselves whose daddy pays for everything, or more likley a shonky operator that exploits newbies to undercut competitors in the first place.
Lapon is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 02:36
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 1,934
Originally Posted by Lapon View Post
Its also hard to believe that there are the occasional posters here attempting to justify it too. Presumably some sort of scab themselves whose daddy pays for everything, or more likley a shonky operator that exploits newbies to undercut competitors in the first place.
Agreed. Go on Neville, tell us where you got your free hours. Scab
morno is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 02:44
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 3,816
Neville @ post #20
And no I never paid to fly or flew for free but I wouldn't necessarily black ball someone who did. ..
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 6th Nov 2020, 02:52
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In the detent
Posts: 517
Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
End of the day noone cares how you got your experience as long as it isn't fake whether you got paid or not is irrelevant. That's just the reality of the situation. Aviation isn't a "good bloke" competition or who took the moral high ground it's all about who has the experience.
No, that's your take on it to justify your scab behavior. You don't like being told your choices to undermine and shortcut in the industry means you are a scab in the eyes of your peers. That's the reality of the situation.
Clearly the amount of industry people posting here that you are trying to argue against should have given you a clue otherwise.

Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
How would the local accountant feel that he lost a client because some pilot/accountant did the accounts for free so that he can fly?
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.







kingRB is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.