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Flying for free to build hours

Old 2nd Nov 2020, 21:18
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
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getaway...

it's not running an airline. A virtual airline is much simpler. You just have to think outside the box.
OK, I'm trying really hard to think outside the box, and at this point it seems to me that if you are going to be running a virtual airline then I think that you will find that you are going to need an AOC ..... refer S.15.20 of the CASA AOC Handbook Volume 2 - Flying Operations.

And if that's the case then you need to understand S.28 of the Act, which at this point I'm not so sure that you do.

And that all means that you are going to have a fair bit of working capital right from the outset to get your virtual airline up and running, which presumably you and your mates understand?

Not sure why you can't grasp this very simple concept.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 23:22
  #42 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Well, call me stupid, but Iím not sure how you are going to be able to pay your VET fee debt if you are flying for free????

And from the VET website:

Repayments are taken out of what you earn through the tax system.
You wonít need to make repayments until you are earning more than $51,957 a year. This is called the repayment threshold.

There is no interest charged on HELP debts

So, if I am understanding you, you want to get some experience, so you can get a paying job so you can start paying off your ďcripplingĒ VET debt which you donít need to pay off until you earn +$51k pa and it will be automatically deducted from your salary?

VET is the cheapest money you will ever get, forget about it.

What you are really wanting to know, is: How do I get some experience so I can kick off my career?
Yeah just to kickstart a career. In the meantime, just applying with Centrelink for jobseeker until something comes up. Willing to do anything to be honest! But your right, I don't have to start paying any of it back until I earn over a certain limit. I just didn't know what the expectation of a new pilot is nowadays. Whether you need to do some work experience in a remote area on no income or minimal wage. Hence the question...
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 23:26
  #43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zanthrus View Post
Flying for free.

Simple. Don't do it!

You are screwing yourself.

You are screwing your mates.

You are screwing the industry for the future.


DON'T DO IT!!!!!
Okay... well thanks for that. Will take the average of the opinions and will run with that.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 23:50
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I just didn't know what the expectation of a new pilot is nowadays. Whether you need to do some work experience in a remote area on no income or minimal wage. Hence the question...
Surely you researched these things before setting out on the career?

Ps, donít work for free. Even a prostitute gets paid.
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 02:00
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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When aviation recovers there will be a lot of folks with new license in the queue.

How can you make yourself more attractive.

1. Build hours.. doesnt matter in what, 200hours in a light single will be 200 hours more than a lot of folks. Instructing for free hours may be an option depending on where you are.
2. Take up additional courses.. anything safety related is good, does not have to be aviation but should be recognized by national bodies. OSHA, work related safety, if anything these will help you give good answers in the interview in addition to giving the impression you're not sitting back and doing nothing. These course are usually provided at nominal costs.
3. If you have access to funds, a degree in aviation/aeronautics helps put you ahead of the pack.

I agree with the rest that offering to work for free is not good .. and you will be severely disadvantaged when it comes to the interview as there will likely be rated pilots looking for the same job. Good luck.

Anilv
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 04:40
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
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Flying for free in China?

Hi guys so I qualified before lockdown and was wondering if anyone had any information on obtaining any unpaid overseas flying to build up some hours? Obviously right now I'm up to my eyeballs in debt (roughly 130k) I'm also no spring chicken (the hairline recession is beginning to scare away the opposite sex!) Haha so really I want to focus this period on obtaining some flying hours and it seems there's nothing to be found in the UK right now, I'm thinking of overseas opportunities where I could for instance be involved in flying livestock from places like the Far East and India, this would be of course 100% voluntary and unpaid if anyone has any info on whether there's an opportunity here to build hours or even if this is a good idea I'd appreciate it.

Thanks 👍
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 07:11
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with the rest that offering to work for free is not good .. and you will be severely disadvantaged when it comes to the interview as there will likely be rated pilots looking for the same job.
That isn't my experience. People I knew who either paid for commercial flying or for flew for free raced through the industry pretty quickly and were in QF or Regionals or good paying GA jobs faster than anybody else. It's all well and good to take the moral high ground on this issue, but those who did it in the past seemed to benefit pretty well from it. I have never actually heard of anyone being blackballed but certainly knew of 3 operators who threatened it but noone ever followed through.

The reason for this is that essentially Aviation Recruitment at EVERY level is fundamentally a box ticking exercise. If you don't have the minimum requirements (whatever they are) you will never be able to go anywhere regardless of how many 'hard yards' you've done. The guy with 250 hours ME Command for free is always going to beat the GA hero who has been all around the NT and FNQ but zero twin time no matter what a good bloke he is. That's just how it is unfortunately. I met or worked with at least 5 guys that I can remember in my GA days who had flown alot of twin hours either privately or for free, and everyone bitched about them but they were the guys who got the job because they had the hours in the logbook.

Last edited by neville_nobody; 3rd Nov 2020 at 07:23.
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 10:20
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by brokenagain View Post
Surely you researched these things before setting out on the career?

Ps, donít work for free. Even a prostitute gets paid.
Exactly.

Anyone who works for free is a f***ing scab who deserves to fail
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 10:30
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Jay Reid View Post
Hi guys so I qualified before lockdown and was wondering if anyone had any information on obtaining any unpaid overseas flying to build up some hours? Obviously right now I'm up to my eyeballs in debt (roughly 130k) I'm also no spring chicken (the hairline recession is beginning to scare away the opposite sex!) Haha so really I want to focus this period on obtaining some flying hours and it seems there's nothing to be found in the UK right now, I'm thinking of overseas opportunities where I could for instance be involved in flying livestock from places like the Far East and India, this would be of course 100% voluntary and unpaid if anyone has any info on whether there's an opportunity here to build hours or even if this is a good idea I'd appreciate it.

Thanks 👍
So you think people who do this sort of thing for a living should step aside so you can do it for free?
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 14:41
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I have to say getaways posts are so ridiculous they have to be a wind-up, surely.

Unfortunately, Neville nobody is quite correct though. At least in the past (who knows what will happen now).
I know a few pilots whose wealthy parents paid for them to get an endorsement and hours in an “airline” environment, and all of them went on to careers in the majors, while the rest of us scrubbers battled it out in GA.
I remember all those ads in Flying magazine offering x hundred hours in a turboprop for $40k or whatever.

The truth is some people have always been able to buy themselves a job in this industry.
Maybe that will change now?
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 15:11
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I doubt it. I still get people sending me resumes offering to work for nothing, or even offering to pay me to take them on; they go straight in the circular filing cabinet
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 16:25
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ENGLAND, BUT IN ASIA NOW
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Originally Posted by Jay Reid View Post
Hi guys so I qualified before lockdown and was wondering if anyone had any information on obtaining any unpaid overseas flying to build up some hours? Obviously right now I'm up to my eyeballs in debt (roughly 130k) I'm also no spring chicken (the hairline recession is beginning to scare away the opposite sex!) Haha so really I want to focus this period on obtaining some flying hours and it seems there's nothing to be found in the UK right now, I'm thinking of overseas opportunities where I could for instance be involved in flying livestock from places like the Far East and India, this would be of course 100% voluntary and unpaid if anyone has any info on whether there's an opportunity here to build hours or even if this is a good idea I'd appreciate it.

Thanks 👍
Donít worry China will not take you on, CAAC stopped issuing CPLís to foreigners from 2012. You basically have to have an ATPL in order to even step into the Chinese market for foreigners. Especially in these current conditions, the market is already saturated with local airline pilots only flying once or twice a week domestically.

Goodluck looking elsewhere, but Iím pretty sure companies will raise an eyebrow if you are wanting to work for free. You would probably be better off with those pay for rating & hour schemes, which is better than fly for free. Just my pinch of salt.
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 17:02
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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At what point do you want to stop working for free and actually start earning to pay off that debt?

At what point do the companies then start paying for their pilots when there is a steady stream of desperate people willing to fly their aircraft for free?

Companies are run by accountants these days, give them a 'free' revenue reduction and they will bite your hand off and not change. The only one who loses is you and anyone else coming after you. Mind you you can always come on here lamenting on how those that have gone before have failed to protect the industries T's & C's whilst you work for less than peanuts!

All IMHO of course.
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 18:20
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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I have 15000 hours you can have. I presently have a sale 2 hours for the price of one! So 1500 hrs cost about $300k. For only $1.5m you can have my un-needed hours, it’s a win win👌
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 20:44
  #55 (permalink)  
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Flying "for free" does not make one a "scab".
it's not the way to go, but who among us hasn't ferried an airplane or 2 for a few beers after?
Lighten up to the newbies.
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 22:45
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
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*Ring Ring*
"Hi there - Cessna 206 airways."
"Hello - I am a pilot and want to work for you."
"Great what will you bring to the company?"
"I'll work for free!"
"So - you'll bring nothing to the company?"
"No - I'll fly the aeroplanes."
"Yes, but you yourself value that at nothing. We have a significant economic exposure to bad flying - we have a serious, legal, responsibility to our passengers - and you value your flying contribution at "zero"??? .... thank you but you are obviously such a bad pilot risk that we don't want to be associated with you."
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 03:52
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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The sanctimonious hypocrisy of the profession makes me shake my head in dismay. Look at what’s happening in Hong Kong, all those A scalers on very lucrative contracts who derided the ones who joined on lesser contracts, all of them now rushing to sign contracts which when compared to their previous salary is like flying for free. Hubris has a way of biting you in the rear end.

That high moral ground is a slippery slope, beware when preaching from it.

Do I think flying for free is a good thing? Of course not. But I’d never belittle someone else’s desperation to pursue their dream.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 05:14
  #58 (permalink)  
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Not sure why offering to fly for free is a bad thing! It's not that I intend to do it forever. I am just trying to get some initial hours to at least have a chance at a paid job. It has nothing to do with de-valuing what I can offer. I'm not a "bad pilot" or "unsafe." I have some friends that work as successful freelance graphic designers that told me they had to offer their services for free to get some initial reviews (then started charging thereafter). I know a personal trainer that worked with a few clients (for free) to get a few testimonies to start charging for his services. Working for free (initially) is very common in other industries so I think it is bizarre that it is frowned upon in this industry.

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 06:53
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
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Originally Posted by nigelsomers View Post
Not sure why offering to fly for free is a bad thing! It's not that I intend to do it forever. I am just trying to get some initial hours to at least have a chance at a paid job. It has nothing to do with de-valuing what I can offer. I'm not a "bad pilot" or "unsafe." I have some friends that work as successful freelance graphic designers that told me they had to offer their services for free to get some initial reviews (then started charging thereafter). I know a personal trainer that worked with a few clients (for free) to get a few testimonies to start charging for his services. Working for free (initially) is very common in other industries so I think it is bizarre that it is frowned upon in this industry.

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.
Well lets hope you get a job in GA and spend the rest of your working life trying to scratch a living from it, you deserve it. Arsewipes have been flying for free, overweight, and unserviceable aircraft for 55 years that I know of and are responsible for the industry being the complete shambles it is. Did it ever occur to you to get a job first, earn some money and pay for your flying as you go, nah too hard right.? I think I would be depressed too if I was a member of your group.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 06:55
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Originally Posted by nigelsomers View Post
Not sure why offering to fly for free is a bad thing! It's not that I intend to do it forever. I am just trying to get some initial hours to at least have a chance at a paid job. It has nothing to do with de-valuing what I can offer. I'm not a "bad pilot" or "unsafe." I have some friends that work as successful freelance graphic designers that told me they had to offer their services for free to get some initial reviews (then started charging thereafter). I know a personal trainer that worked with a few clients (for free) to get a few testimonies to start charging for his services. Working for free (initially) is very common in other industries so I think it is bizarre that it is frowned upon in this industry.

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.
The reason it is frowned upon is that once in the industry it is a constant battle to even just maintain existing conditions. Those of us who lived that fight for years dont appreciate the already small industry being flooded with attitudes of 'so what I'll just do it to get started'.

The problem is that next you go and fly for free to get that twin gig, next you pay for some turbo prop time, after that why not got and buy a jet job? By the time you and everyone else has done that the otherwise genuine operators rightly ask why should they pay at all.

You are better off putting your efforts into developing another skill set as you will probably need to draw on it at somepoint in your career anyway.
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