How do you keep pushing?
Very few well paid careers are 9 to 5. Ranging from driving a mine truck for a reasonable wage, to working your way up the corporate ladder, to having a business all require shift work but the difference is mental stress. What once was a well respected career with good compensation for that time away from home, for that expertise in a professional area, for having decision making abilities that hold life’s in your hands, and shift work is arguably no longer an attractive package. Although driving a truck does not have the kudo’s of being a pilot it does pay the bill’s. You can put up with a lot of **** if that bank balance is bounding ahead or you can put up with a subsistence wage if what you’re doing is what you love and bound out of bed every morning for but seldom do these two meet.
I agree with KingRB. I think you have answered your own question. You have had a gutful. If you are hanging on with the idea of a commercial career it is still possible but I think the days of A or b or C scale Cathay are long gone for any airline. When ANSETT went under and pilot’s were doing other jobs the realization, for quite a few, was I am earning more money doing X without the stress. So is it worthwhile following the dream whereby in 5-10 years time I’ll be earning more than I am bricklaying or should I just stick to bricklaying (weekends at home etc).
Anyway PlotPlot your D and best of luck.
I agree with KingRB. I think you have answered your own question. You have had a gutful. If you are hanging on with the idea of a commercial career it is still possible but I think the days of A or b or C scale Cathay are long gone for any airline. When ANSETT went under and pilot’s were doing other jobs the realization, for quite a few, was I am earning more money doing X without the stress. So is it worthwhile following the dream whereby in 5-10 years time I’ll be earning more than I am bricklaying or should I just stick to bricklaying (weekends at home etc).
Anyway PlotPlot your D and best of luck.
Depends what you're willing to do. If you have that mindset, then no, it probably isn't. But like I said, I gave flying away for another passion and it has paid off. You aren't going to walk into a $120,000+ job from the cockpit of a 210, but within 12-18 months it is easily achievable. The job I am referring to specifically is train driver. Depending who you work for, once you are out of the initial school it is $65-75,000 a year for an assistant, rising to $123,000+ for a qualified Driver, before overtime. The OT rate is $106/hour for GWA per their enterprise agreement. I work part-time (not for them though), averaging 28h/wk, do 2 weeks work (14x12h shifts) and have 4 weeks RDO's and earn $110K. Reckon you'll earn that in the aviation environment today if you are not flying?
What should happen, and what does happen, as has been found out many a time, are not always the same. IF you aren't prepared to even consider what is offered, then that's entirely up to you. But there are jobs out there that pay well, even in this economy...Pining for something that is not going to happen is only going to make you more miserable.
Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
If it all goes down the drain then so be it, but I’m tired of listening to unrealistic prospects of gold paved roads working in IT or what have you. It is simply not realistic nor fair to 99% of us who’ve been putting too much into this. And should be recognized at least a bit when times are tough.
There’s no train driving jobs in Victoria right now, because nobody is using public transport!
Some people are hung up on the word “professional”. They have an emotional need for status. I grew up in an age when people looked up at professionals with university degrees and looked distastefully at “trades” and tradesmen. It was an understandable but short sighted idea. People assumed that “professionals”, (a) made more money and (b) were happier.
This was and is BS. while I was still a ragged university student, young tradesmen already had their second or third car, were paying off their first house and were thinking of wife and kids. As a professional engineer, I was at least six or seven years behind the kids who were apprenticed and earning at sixteen in terms of establishing an independent lifestyle and my own household. I have NEVER made up that gap and neither have many other professionals. It’s called discounted cash flow - you might pick up a six figure salary as a professional at the peak of your earning powers but that doesn’t make up for the years of relative poverty and stress to achieve it.
Furthermore there is a unique Australian associated problem - income tax. The tax scales don’t have any compensation for risk, investment and the stress involved in earning that big salary at all. You are better off earning less if you can get stable long term perhaps undemanding work rather than trying to make big bucks on the corporate high wire where one slip and....,,
‘’Try and forget the status / power / snobbery angle and find something that is personally satisfying.
I still remember the constant stream of suicides as students jumped off the ming wing when the tension between what they wanted to do and what their parents expected them to do became just too much.
This was and is BS. while I was still a ragged university student, young tradesmen already had their second or third car, were paying off their first house and were thinking of wife and kids. As a professional engineer, I was at least six or seven years behind the kids who were apprenticed and earning at sixteen in terms of establishing an independent lifestyle and my own household. I have NEVER made up that gap and neither have many other professionals. It’s called discounted cash flow - you might pick up a six figure salary as a professional at the peak of your earning powers but that doesn’t make up for the years of relative poverty and stress to achieve it.
Furthermore there is a unique Australian associated problem - income tax. The tax scales don’t have any compensation for risk, investment and the stress involved in earning that big salary at all. You are better off earning less if you can get stable long term perhaps undemanding work rather than trying to make big bucks on the corporate high wire where one slip and....,,
‘’Try and forget the status / power / snobbery angle and find something that is personally satisfying.
I still remember the constant stream of suicides as students jumped off the ming wing when the tension between what they wanted to do and what their parents expected them to do became just too much.
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And who says you have to "keep pushing"?
I hope you realised by now, that romantic child dreams do not quite resemble pragmatic adult realities. And if you have to sacrifice so much and scrap the bottom to find motivation to carry on, then perhaps you should do some introspection to see what sort of childhood overhang(s) you need to get rid of.
I hope you realised by now, that romantic child dreams do not quite resemble pragmatic adult realities. And if you have to sacrifice so much and scrap the bottom to find motivation to carry on, then perhaps you should do some introspection to see what sort of childhood overhang(s) you need to get rid of.
As a comparison, two extreme ends of the spectrum:
Got a mate who works for a big financier in Sydney CBD. Pre-covid he spent 0700-1700 on weekdays at work before coming home via packed sweaty public transport only to then spend another 3-4 hours at home taking phone calls and replying to emails. Now he just logs on in the morning and works from home until he struggles to stay awake somewhere around 2000-2100. Most of the guys doing his job are in their mid - late 20s, paid around 80-110k a year and are generally miserable in every sense of the word.
Another friend works in the APS. Works for an operationally focussed department that she says is “slightly less boring than the usual APS gig”. Flex time, easy to get leave, been promoted several times etc etc. While the workplace is more or less pleasant it’s an absolute drain on morale if you have any ambition whatsoever. She’s 29, does her weekly 37.5 hours, paid about 70k and screaming to get out of Canberra.
If you were to leave and get a “real” job you can be certain that the grass will only be a different shade of green. Flying a desk can be an unpleasant change for some, so (especially if you’re thinking about uni) maybe try to intern or something. Maybe even do a temp 1/3/6 month gig if possible?
Got a mate who works for a big financier in Sydney CBD. Pre-covid he spent 0700-1700 on weekdays at work before coming home via packed sweaty public transport only to then spend another 3-4 hours at home taking phone calls and replying to emails. Now he just logs on in the morning and works from home until he struggles to stay awake somewhere around 2000-2100. Most of the guys doing his job are in their mid - late 20s, paid around 80-110k a year and are generally miserable in every sense of the word.
Another friend works in the APS. Works for an operationally focussed department that she says is “slightly less boring than the usual APS gig”. Flex time, easy to get leave, been promoted several times etc etc. While the workplace is more or less pleasant it’s an absolute drain on morale if you have any ambition whatsoever. She’s 29, does her weekly 37.5 hours, paid about 70k and screaming to get out of Canberra.
If you were to leave and get a “real” job you can be certain that the grass will only be a different shade of green. Flying a desk can be an unpleasant change for some, so (especially if you’re thinking about uni) maybe try to intern or something. Maybe even do a temp 1/3/6 month gig if possible?
Last edited by Maggie Island; 16th Sep 2020 at 07:59.
All I can say is, the big decisions, like changing career, often make themselves. Something will happen to help you decide whether to walk away or not. If you really are stuck in a rut then accept that we all are from time to time. That's life, it can be like groundhog day sometimes...trust me, I've been instructing for 30 years!
Talk about a rock and a hard place. To a certain extent it gets back to what you have experienced before. In my case I had really crappy jobs prior to get into aviation and that kept me going thru GA. Admittedly times were far better then for progress but it still took 17 years on bug smashers with associated conditions before moving to something better. Even then I had to take a 40% pay cut from GA in my first airline job.
I guess you have to look at what is the alternative and at the moment there is not much. Good luck.
I guess you have to look at what is the alternative and at the moment there is not much. Good luck.
Actually they increased the number of services on tram and trains during the 1st phase of lockdown in Victoria. The thinking was the more units out there the less crowded they would be. So yes, not many pax but more trains and trams than ever before. Dan's mates at the TWU are loving the overtime which is all that matters apparently.
PlotPlot,
You are not alone with these feelings of frustration. I actually took the decision to leave work for a couple of years whilst my children were in high school, I was married before starting in this profession, and I made every parents evening, every event and every rugby match. Unfortunately I had to go back to work when my wife had spent most of my savings. But 5 years off made it hard to get back.
In the UK operators are legally required to have a pilot peer support programme so that we can talk to an anonymous mate about exactly what you post. The big airlines have their own programme but most corporate operators use a cooperative system. In the mean time try and join this on line chat if you can,
MM
You are not alone with these feelings of frustration. I actually took the decision to leave work for a couple of years whilst my children were in high school, I was married before starting in this profession, and I made every parents evening, every event and every rugby match. Unfortunately I had to go back to work when my wife had spent most of my savings. But 5 years off made it hard to get back.
In the UK operators are legally required to have a pilot peer support programme so that we can talk to an anonymous mate about exactly what you post. The big airlines have their own programme but most corporate operators use a cooperative system. In the mean time try and join this on line chat if you can,
MM
Actually they increased the number of services on tram and trains during the 1st phase of lockdown in Victoria. The thinking was the more units out there the less crowded they would be. So yes, not many pax but more trains and trams than ever before. Dan's mates at the TWU are loving the overtime which is all that matters apparently.
The local train runs every 20 mins at off peak times, so are you suggesting that its now a 200 minute frequency?
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Your troubles are not limited to GA. I am an airline captain, with a reasonably stable schedule and well paid.
I have loved my job and I am very sad that chances are that I am very soon being made redundant.
Having said that - I live very far from my family and friends now. I have been forced to move every 3-4 years because of the job. I have missed countless of birthdays, important events, holidays and Christmas's during my last 20 years of flying.
Once I came to terms with the fact that I will most probably never fly again - the thought of moving to my home country, buying a house that I am not forced to sell again after a few years, seeing friends in my sparetime instead of just colleagues, and seeing my nephew grow up....just does not sound so bad.
I have loved my job and I am very sad that chances are that I am very soon being made redundant.
Having said that - I live very far from my family and friends now. I have been forced to move every 3-4 years because of the job. I have missed countless of birthdays, important events, holidays and Christmas's during my last 20 years of flying.
Once I came to terms with the fact that I will most probably never fly again - the thought of moving to my home country, buying a house that I am not forced to sell again after a few years, seeing friends in my sparetime instead of just colleagues, and seeing my nephew grow up....just does not sound so bad.
Plotplot,
Your last sentence is what you have to solve. Are you pushing to pay the bills? For the family? For your own big pilot dream? It seems to me that you feel sacrificing too much currently, expecting a certain career advancement which is now seems diminished. Let’s be honest, everyone’s plan is now spoilt! Mine too.
There is no rush to reach any level in aviation. Every level has it pros and cons. Some jobs make pilots cross the Pond (and 12hrs time zome different) 3 times a month. Some jobs make pilots commute 1.5 days from home to base. Some have to don a polar suit in order to do external walk around. Worthy or not, entirely up to the beholder.
If you have lost interest in flying, go try something else. If you are still employed flying GA, my advice is hang in there. There will be plenty of opportunities to fly something bigger once the tide turns.
Personally, I have been furloughed for more than 6 months and may never go back to fly for current employer. During this period, I most envy those single pilot IFR Youtubers in their single engine turboprops!
Don’t be too hard on yourself and I wish you all the best!
Your last sentence is what you have to solve. Are you pushing to pay the bills? For the family? For your own big pilot dream? It seems to me that you feel sacrificing too much currently, expecting a certain career advancement which is now seems diminished. Let’s be honest, everyone’s plan is now spoilt! Mine too.
There is no rush to reach any level in aviation. Every level has it pros and cons. Some jobs make pilots cross the Pond (and 12hrs time zome different) 3 times a month. Some jobs make pilots commute 1.5 days from home to base. Some have to don a polar suit in order to do external walk around. Worthy or not, entirely up to the beholder.
If you have lost interest in flying, go try something else. If you are still employed flying GA, my advice is hang in there. There will be plenty of opportunities to fly something bigger once the tide turns.
Personally, I have been furloughed for more than 6 months and may never go back to fly for current employer. During this period, I most envy those single pilot IFR Youtubers in their single engine turboprops!
Don’t be too hard on yourself and I wish you all the best!
Thread Starter
PlotPlot,
You are not alone with these feelings of frustration. I actually took the decision to leave work for a couple of years whilst my children were in high school, I was married before starting in this profession, and I made every parents evening, every event and every rugby match. Unfortunately I had to go back to work when my wife had spent most of my savings. But 5 years off made it hard to get back.
In the UK operators are legally required to have a pilot peer support programme so that we can talk to an anonymous mate about exactly what you post. The big airlines have their own programme but most corporate operators use a cooperative system. In the mean time try and join this on line chat if you can,
MM
You are not alone with these feelings of frustration. I actually took the decision to leave work for a couple of years whilst my children were in high school, I was married before starting in this profession, and I made every parents evening, every event and every rugby match. Unfortunately I had to go back to work when my wife had spent most of my savings. But 5 years off made it hard to get back.
In the UK operators are legally required to have a pilot peer support programme so that we can talk to an anonymous mate about exactly what you post. The big airlines have their own programme but most corporate operators use a cooperative system. In the mean time try and join this on line chat if you can,
MM
I probably should have specified my background at the start so people didn't think I was just a whinging twenty-something with no other life experience. I was in IT for 13 years before making the change, so this is not my first professional rodeo, and I know how that sh!t sandwich tastes in another industry. The reason I left was due to the same sentiment that someone already mentioned; if you don't enjoy it, then why do it. I didn't enjoy it, so I left.
I came in to this career knowing full well I'd be eating a different flavored sandwich but the same nonetheless for a few years. But imagine you've been chewing on that sh!t sandwich for four years, and you know that you'll be eating your last bite of that sandwich this year, and then someone goes, "sorry champ, take a seat, we've just made you another sh!t sandwich to eat for another 4-6 years yet". There is a big difference between going into it expecting to be eating that sandwich for 8-10 years, rather than thinking it will be 2-4 like it has been for a while, then watching the industry turn on a dime just as you were getting close to the last bite. A big difference.
I'm aware those conditions aren't unique to GA. But at least at some point you'll have those conditions, but you won't be living remote, isolated away from friends and family, and you'll begin to have some resemblance of a life, and on a liveable salary. And don't tell me you put up with the same sh!t now like the way you did by your employer in GA. Or perhaps you've been away from it for too long and forgot what it was actually like.
My rose colored glasses lost their tint long before I even had my first flying job. Airlines was never really on my radar, I was always aiming for something with a bit more substance. Being a pilot was not something I aspired to since I was born. It was something I found a passion in, and decided to take a punt on turning that passion into a career. It may still work out yet.
Thread Starter
Fokkerdriver, I'm glad you have been able to find a silver lining.
Flightleader, there is an element of guilt that comes with feeling this way. Like I should step aside and give it to someone who would appreciate it more. Just trying to get back to the roots of why I did it in the first place. I've worked my guts out to make this career change like many others. A small break may be all that's needed feel that appreciation again.
Flightleader, there is an element of guilt that comes with feeling this way. Like I should step aside and give it to someone who would appreciate it more. Just trying to get back to the roots of why I did it in the first place. I've worked my guts out to make this career change like many others. A small break may be all that's needed feel that appreciation again.
@plotplot
I would stop now and get out. Seriously.
Aviation is not worth your health, your mental health, your relationships, or your marriage. With the downturn in aviation, nothing is going to happen soon, especially without an A320/B737 rating and experience.
I speak as a career changer. I did something brilliant for 16 years, then saw what was coming and got out. I re-trained as a pilot. I did not do any GA but I did full-on, 4/6 sector days in old machinery with dodgy Captains and 6 on, 2 off rosters. I frequently got up at 0300 or 0230. I drove for 90 mins to check-in. Flew 4 or 6 short, busy sectors, then 90 mins home and do it all again the next day. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.
For standbys, I would get up at 0200 put on my uniform on and drive for 30 mins and find a quiet layby and try to sleep in a sleeping bag in my car with the phone on. (had to be within 60 mins of the airfield).
My marriage did not survive. I missed a lot of my children's life and growing up.
Aviation is not worth all that. Unless you are in the right time and place with the right qualifications and get on the right fleet, in the right airline; I would put it down to experience and retrain for something else, while your brain is still young (I assume) and able to relearn.
You have probably done this, but you have to make your own luck: I made mine: I paid (my own savings), to do a full time frozen ATPL(A) at a respected school, then I did a Shorts 360 type rating, which made me employable, (at the time). I literally jumped into the car and drove 4 hours straight when I heard of a job, just to put my CV on the chief pilot's desk. This got me on the second rung of the ladder.
I did eventually get onto the right jet(s) in the right airline, twice, but both those airlines went bust.
I would say if it hasn't happened within three years of starting out; save your health, save your sanity, save your money. Put it down to experience and do something else.
I would certainly not fly fatigued.
I would stop now and get out. Seriously.
Aviation is not worth your health, your mental health, your relationships, or your marriage. With the downturn in aviation, nothing is going to happen soon, especially without an A320/B737 rating and experience.
I speak as a career changer. I did something brilliant for 16 years, then saw what was coming and got out. I re-trained as a pilot. I did not do any GA but I did full-on, 4/6 sector days in old machinery with dodgy Captains and 6 on, 2 off rosters. I frequently got up at 0300 or 0230. I drove for 90 mins to check-in. Flew 4 or 6 short, busy sectors, then 90 mins home and do it all again the next day. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.
For standbys, I would get up at 0200 put on my uniform on and drive for 30 mins and find a quiet layby and try to sleep in a sleeping bag in my car with the phone on. (had to be within 60 mins of the airfield).
My marriage did not survive. I missed a lot of my children's life and growing up.
Aviation is not worth all that. Unless you are in the right time and place with the right qualifications and get on the right fleet, in the right airline; I would put it down to experience and retrain for something else, while your brain is still young (I assume) and able to relearn.
You have probably done this, but you have to make your own luck: I made mine: I paid (my own savings), to do a full time frozen ATPL(A) at a respected school, then I did a Shorts 360 type rating, which made me employable, (at the time). I literally jumped into the car and drove 4 hours straight when I heard of a job, just to put my CV on the chief pilot's desk. This got me on the second rung of the ladder.
I did eventually get onto the right jet(s) in the right airline, twice, but both those airlines went bust.
I would say if it hasn't happened within three years of starting out; save your health, save your sanity, save your money. Put it down to experience and do something else.
I would certainly not fly fatigued.
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plot, only you can make that call.
You are still alive and solvent, therefore you must be pretty fair at the job.
Take solace in being good at what you do.
Maybe scheme your next move and be ready when the time comes. There are better gigs, albeit not right at this minute.
Good luck.
You are still alive and solvent, therefore you must be pretty fair at the job.
Take solace in being good at what you do.
Maybe scheme your next move and be ready when the time comes. There are better gigs, albeit not right at this minute.
Good luck.
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Someone mentioned train driving. It's properly the way ahead.
Mate of mine left school at 16 and dossed around fixing computers for 10 years, living with his parents and barely scraping by.
About 6 years ago he responded to an advert for freight train drivers. He has just bought a £350k house cash (i.e. no mortgage), has a great car and long term girlfriend with kid.
When I asked him how he did it he said the base pay (following training) started at £35k and is now £75k. You can then top this up with shift allowances and bonuses. One year he worked Christmas day and Boxing Day and was paid £2500...per day! He has comfortably cleared 6 figures for the last 3 or 4 years.
I have friends who are lawyers and doctors. Outside of the few in top-end private practice it is not that well paid and they make, on average, about £65k having spent 5 or 6 years getting qualified and carrying huge training debt.
'The professions' sound impressive and carry high social capital, but it is not the land of milk and honey.
Mate of mine left school at 16 and dossed around fixing computers for 10 years, living with his parents and barely scraping by.
About 6 years ago he responded to an advert for freight train drivers. He has just bought a £350k house cash (i.e. no mortgage), has a great car and long term girlfriend with kid.
When I asked him how he did it he said the base pay (following training) started at £35k and is now £75k. You can then top this up with shift allowances and bonuses. One year he worked Christmas day and Boxing Day and was paid £2500...per day! He has comfortably cleared 6 figures for the last 3 or 4 years.
I have friends who are lawyers and doctors. Outside of the few in top-end private practice it is not that well paid and they make, on average, about £65k having spent 5 or 6 years getting qualified and carrying huge training debt.
'The professions' sound impressive and carry high social capital, but it is not the land of milk and honey.
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Living in the moment is not always the best thing. You need to think where you would like to see yourself in 10 or 20 years rather than tomorrow or in a month's time.
Granted, this crisis will pass, just as any other one has. So, long-term, you will have any aviation job opportunity you can think of. The question is, what do you want to get out of it? Also, what frustrates you so much now? It might not be the profession as such but the unsatisfactory environment in the specific gig you're working for. If that's the case, it's a matter of patience until something better comes up. That's a case when it's worth staying in aviation.
However, it your vision of life in 10 years from now is totally incompatible with anything aviation - that's a completely different matter. Then it's not worth extending your suffering and frustration any further than absolutely necessary to change career paths.
Granted, this crisis will pass, just as any other one has. So, long-term, you will have any aviation job opportunity you can think of. The question is, what do you want to get out of it? Also, what frustrates you so much now? It might not be the profession as such but the unsatisfactory environment in the specific gig you're working for. If that's the case, it's a matter of patience until something better comes up. That's a case when it's worth staying in aviation.
However, it your vision of life in 10 years from now is totally incompatible with anything aviation - that's a completely different matter. Then it's not worth extending your suffering and frustration any further than absolutely necessary to change career paths.
