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Best method of getting AOC

Old 17th Jun 2020, 11:32
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Best method of getting AOC

What is the best method for getting an AOC in Australia for freight ops?
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Old 17th Jun 2020, 21:11
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This could be a very interesting thread?

An AOC for SE turbine PC12 passenger/freight, possibly RPT, IFR operations including SE night - how long is a piece of string?

Have you contacted CASA for a time and cost estimate?
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Old 17th Jun 2020, 21:15
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"What is the best method for getting an AOC in Australia for freight ops?"

The prerequisite for gaining an AOC in Australia is lots of money, time and the patience of Job.
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Old 17th Jun 2020, 22:50
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In the current economic environment, I would think that CASA would roll out the red carpet, invite you in for drinks and dinner and give it to you on a plate in about 48 hours.

At least that is the equivalent of what we did for prospective investors in industry during the Kennett Victorian Administration all those years ago.
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Old 17th Jun 2020, 23:10
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The least complicated and least expensive way, and the one that puts you at least risk of losing your sanity, is to buy a controlling interest in a company which holds an AOC authorising the operations you want to carry out. A change of control behind the ‘corporate veil’ is not a transfer of the AOC. The AOC continues to be held by the same person. However, CASA will be all over the company when it finds out, to ascertain whether the company continues to have adequate key personnel, financial viability etc.

I occasionally see adverts for AOC’s ‘for sale’, which I assume means someone holds but wants to sell his/her controlling share/s in a company that holds the AOC. (It’s not legally possible for one person to sell an AOC to another person. I suppose a person could sell the piece of paper to another person, just as I could sell my driver’s licence to someone, but it’s useless to the person who paid for it.)

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Old 18th Jun 2020, 02:50
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Trust you have plenty of time and plenty of money ! Good luck !!
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 04:02
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I have assisted several companies to obtain an AOC in the last few years including though complete blank state applications and purchase of existing AOC holding companies.
Both options have their advantages and disadvantages and both are not something you should leap into without understanding of what you are getting for the money.
Common pitfalls include:
  • purchasing an company with an AOC:
    • a change of key personnel or location triggers a review of the Operations manual which is found non-compliant in multiple areas (CASA hold up appointment of new key personnel until manual is compliant).
    • new owner not approved as CP of purchased company due to not having experience covering all approved activities on the AOC
    • company operations manual is approved but poorly written, confusing, contradictory - new owner/CP (already overburdened by new business) finds it impossible to determine and keep on top of obligations in the operations manual, leading to early non-compliance
  • Blank slate startup
    • Owner written operations manual either does not meet the regs (multiple delays with CASA) or is not well written (difficult to follow/use) - really common
    • Owner hires a consultant to produce manuals/documents/policies never really receives any support in using reviewing/amending the manual and thus never really understands what they have bought. Consultant may or may not manage/assist with managing the application through CASA. Quality of manuals vary greatly between consultants.
    • Owner significantly underestimates the time taken to achieve the AOC (freight only/piston twins - between 3-6 months from completion of the draft manuals but may take up to 12 months)
Another pitfall if you are doing this now/soon is the introduction of the new Part 135/138 regs, you will need to make a decision on which regs new/old you want the approval under.

If you want some free advice feel free to drop me a PM.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 07:57
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Talk to Tigerair, their AOC is still active, I knows there's hundred of pilots floating around and a few old Buses & Boeings, just lying idle -
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 13:34
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For Airwork??
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 14:55
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Hello,
Do I need to worry about any of this stuff if I just get an aircraft and employ pilots to fly it, instead of going down the freight aspect?

Thank.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 14:58
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Hello,
Who is the best person to see about this?

Thanks,
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 23:17
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Get your own, donít purchase an existing AOC.

In this climate plan for the whole process to take at least 9 months minimum.

Draft you exposition suite (ops manuals) to be compliant as best as you can with the new Part 135 and 138 regs, this will make the transition easier.


Last edited by Duck Pilot; 2nd Jul 2020 at 02:09.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 23:30
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Do I need to worry about any of this stuff if I just get an aircraft and employ pilots to fly it, instead of going down the freight aspect?
I suspect you are considering a venture in which you have no qualifications, knowledge or experience?
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 01:35
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Why not visit your nearest CASA Office. And while you are on their website, look up AOC.
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 07:15
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Originally Posted by Progressive View Post
I have assisted several companies to obtain an AOC in the last few years including though complete blank state applications and purchase of existing AOC holding companies.
Both options have their advantages and disadvantages and both are not something you should leap into without understanding of what you are getting for the money.
Common pitfalls include:
  • purchasing an company with an AOC:
    • a change of key personnel or location triggers a review of the Operations manual which is found non-compliant in multiple areas (CASA hold up appointment of new key personnel until manual is compliant).
    • new owner not approved as CP of purchased company due to not having experience covering all approved activities on the AOC
    • company operations manual is approved but poorly written, confusing, contradictory - new owner/CP (already overburdened by new business) finds it impossible to determine and keep on top of obligations in the operations manual, leading to early non-compliance
  • Blank slate startup
    • Owner written operations manual either does not meet the regs (multiple delays with CASA) or is not well written (difficult to follow/use) - really common
    • Owner hires a consultant to produce manuals/documents/policies never really receives any support in using reviewing/amending the manual and thus never really understands what they have bought. Consultant may or may not manage/assist with managing the application through CASA. Quality of manuals vary greatly between consultants.
    • Owner significantly underestimates the time taken to achieve the AOC (freight only/piston twins - between 3-6 months from completion of the draft manuals but may take up to 12 months)
Another pitfall if you are doing this now/soon is the introduction of the new Part 135/138 regs, you will need to make a decision on which regs new/old you want the approval under.

If you want some free advice feel free to drop me a PM.
Surely there must exist some pre-approved standard template manuals which will speed up the process? And despite that they may not be as flexible as the operator may desire, at least it crudely gets them up and running and earning money while they negotiate their desired changes.

Or is that too sensible for CASA?


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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 12:02
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..........and another potential investment in Aviation with its associated jobs, sadly vanishes into the sunset.

‘’Of course you are right Lucille. In the current and future economic climate CASA should be falling all over itself to facilitate ANY investment. But sadly no.
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 12:52
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How does being able to download or purchase a set of template manuals qualify someone to hold an AOC?

What process should CASA follow to ascertain whether an applicant has the necessary competence and capacity to hold an AOC?

I’m not suggesting the current process is other than ‘overkill’. For a start, the scope of operations for which an AOC is required is too broad.

But for the operations that justify an AOC, the criterion cannot be: “The applicant has obtained some template manuals.”
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 13:33
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Lead,

You might be missing the point. There is a place for an organisation to prepare manuals on others behalf.
Fine tune the manuals at a later date.
From the thread start point it is clear the applicant is inexperienced in Aviation. The CASA face to face interview for CEO, CP, Safety, etc etc will determine if the applicant has the necessaries.
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 13:37
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Ah. So the criterion is: The subjective opinion of some CASA people after a ‘face to face interview’?
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Old 2nd Jul 2020, 14:44
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Not freight, just prive instead

Originally Posted by tail wheel View Post
I suspect you are considering a venture in which you have no qualifications, knowledge or experience?
Didn't realize it could be so difficult to to arrange an AOC just to carry freight. Can't you just hire a team to run the operation in total with us supplying the funds to do so?
For example, to get pc12ng's, wouldn't a management team with the experience to run the show be more effective? I know a little bit, but not enough to run the whole show, so would obviously be looking for a team situation.
Maybe private may be the better way to go, however, if I get an aircraft ( as above, or a jet ) do I need to get an AOC for private use? Can I just get some pilots to do the piloting stuff ( as far as I know ), or will I still need a management team as well.



Last edited by District9; 2nd Jul 2020 at 14:53. Reason: additional information and comments
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