Lockhart Crash
Fly outbound SE from the NDB. When over the sea (5nm) descend to become visual. Fly VFR back to Lockhart. Old "wisdom" hasn't passed down?
I’ve been there once, back in 2000, forecast was good, dry season stuff. Got overhead and couldn’t see ****, screaming SE’er blowing, pissing rain.
NDB to minima, circle to land 12 was marginal at best. Apparently this is a “normal” day in YLHR.
10 mins later, “local operator” lands with 15+kt tailwind on 30 (C404). I wander over and was told about this “local approach”.
He was surprised I got in off the NDB, “no one ever bothers”. (There is RNAV’s on both ends now I believe)
A few months later the Metro crashed.
I’m pretty sure I will never go back there again.
Something needs to be done to improve safety at this airport, not just by CASA, but by the local council and the operators that go in there.
Last edited by Roj approved; 13th Mar 2020 at 23:41. Reason: Added year, and RNAV
I still have to question why in this day and age are we even still using NDB at all?! All that money being thrown at the regulatory reform, how much would it actually cost to replace every single NDB approach with a GPS Approach?!
Got overhead and couldn’t see ****, screaming SE’er blowing, pissing rain. NDB to minima, circle to land 12 was marginal at best
Something needs to be done to improve safety at this airport, not just by CASA, but by the local council and the operators that go in there
Ixixly
Every aerodrome in DAP except 3 military locations has RNAV approaches published. Every IFR aircraft is required to have approach capable GPS navigator so why fly an NDB procedure except for the novelty?
Every aerodrome in DAP except 3 military locations has RNAV approaches published. Every IFR aircraft is required to have approach capable GPS navigator so why fly an NDB procedure except for the novelty?
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[QUOTE=cowl flaps;10710040]The media stuffing up again, suggesting near cyclonic WX,
While I have been a keen reader of PPRUNE, this is my first post. I am a 70 year old retiree whose flying experience is very different from the tough world of GA flying. I was a fighter pilot in my young days and flew night freight on 737s and757s in my civil life. I am also not familiar with the environment obtained in southern latitudes.
The table listing Station Details indicated calm winds at the time of the crash. But soon thereafter winds pick up and they veer from Westerly to WNW. Wind speeds drop again thereafter to Calm. While the recorded speeds were not very high, doesn't the changing winds indicate a passing cell, may be a large Cumulus? Could it have been a lot more violent, when the ill fated aircraft encountered it along the coast? Cumulus clouds can change it's intensity very rapidly. Down draughts from a large cumulus could be destructive to a small aircraft.
The reason I am writing this is because I find it difficult to believe that any one would deliberately fly so low as to hit a 40 foot dune. If the aircraft had hit something at, say, 500 feet or above one could think of many reasons how it happened.
I have no idea how much data is recorded on these aircraft. So everything would be second guessed and mistakes of the PIC are an easy peg to hang the blame on.
RIP guys.
While I have been a keen reader of PPRUNE, this is my first post. I am a 70 year old retiree whose flying experience is very different from the tough world of GA flying. I was a fighter pilot in my young days and flew night freight on 737s and757s in my civil life. I am also not familiar with the environment obtained in southern latitudes.
The table listing Station Details indicated calm winds at the time of the crash. But soon thereafter winds pick up and they veer from Westerly to WNW. Wind speeds drop again thereafter to Calm. While the recorded speeds were not very high, doesn't the changing winds indicate a passing cell, may be a large Cumulus? Could it have been a lot more violent, when the ill fated aircraft encountered it along the coast? Cumulus clouds can change it's intensity very rapidly. Down draughts from a large cumulus could be destructive to a small aircraft.
The reason I am writing this is because I find it difficult to believe that any one would deliberately fly so low as to hit a 40 foot dune. If the aircraft had hit something at, say, 500 feet or above one could think of many reasons how it happened.
I have no idea how much data is recorded on these aircraft. So everything would be second guessed and mistakes of the PIC are an easy peg to hang the blame on.
RIP guys.
I suspect because in 2000 there was no RNAV back then for that airport 😳
As for my time going in there regularly nearly 20 years ago, with no weather radar and TX around, I much preferred establishing in VMC underneath along the coast than being in IMC up high and running into a storm. I felt it safer given the limitations of the equipment I had (multi 6 seater IFR. No radar).
Last edited by compressor stall; 14th Mar 2020 at 04:12.
Well, that just shows how old I am and how time blends into itself. It was a few “years” later that the Metro crashed, 2005.
Sorry folks.
Funnily enough, when I got back to base the boss asked how YLHR was, I told him, he laughed and said “yeah, it’s always **** like that, the local boys just get visual over the sea and take the tailwind”.
Gotta love GA.😩
Sorry folks.
Funnily enough, when I got back to base the boss asked how YLHR was, I told him, he laughed and said “yeah, it’s always **** like that, the local boys just get visual over the sea and take the tailwind”.
Gotta love GA.😩
I did see a picture in the press this morning that showed the wreckage at the edge of the dune / beach treeline so he must have been low.
....ground level in fact.
[QUOTE=ncthomas;10713233]
Not much data is recorded if any on these aircraft, there may be some limited data on some avionics upgrade such as the GPS. I expect that there could be some cell phone data that could shed some light on the final moments.
I do not know that area, but getting visual over the ocean pretty low, I can see happening. It would not take much of an event/distraction to lose a few precious feet in the tropical weather of the day.
Interesting the WX recorded is not matching with witness reports or a reported text image of the second attempt to land.
I have seen a few "local procedures" for use in adverse weather that involve personal units - not suggesting that is the case here.
RIP & condolences to all involved.
The media stuffing up again, suggesting near cyclonic WX,
While I have been a keen reader of PPRUNE, this is my first post. I am a 70 year old retiree whose flying experience is very different from the tough world of GA flying. I was a fighter pilot in my young days and flew night freight on 737s and757s in my civil life. I am also not familiar with the environment obtained in southern latitudes.
The table listing Station Details indicated calm winds at the time of the crash. But soon thereafter winds pick up and they veer from Westerly to WNW. Wind speeds drop again thereafter to Calm. While the recorded speeds were not very high, doesn't the changing winds indicate a passing cell, may be a large Cumulus? Could it have been a lot more violent, when the ill fated aircraft encountered it along the coast? Cumulus clouds can change it's intensity very rapidly. Down draughts from a large cumulus could be destructive to a small aircraft.
The reason I am writing this is because I find it difficult to believe that any one would deliberately fly so low as to hit a 40 foot dune. If the aircraft had hit something at, say, 500 feet or above one could think of many reasons how it happened.
I have no idea how much data is recorded on these aircraft. So everything would be second guessed and mistakes of the PIC are an easy peg to hang the blame on.
RIP guys.
While I have been a keen reader of PPRUNE, this is my first post. I am a 70 year old retiree whose flying experience is very different from the tough world of GA flying. I was a fighter pilot in my young days and flew night freight on 737s and757s in my civil life. I am also not familiar with the environment obtained in southern latitudes.
The table listing Station Details indicated calm winds at the time of the crash. But soon thereafter winds pick up and they veer from Westerly to WNW. Wind speeds drop again thereafter to Calm. While the recorded speeds were not very high, doesn't the changing winds indicate a passing cell, may be a large Cumulus? Could it have been a lot more violent, when the ill fated aircraft encountered it along the coast? Cumulus clouds can change it's intensity very rapidly. Down draughts from a large cumulus could be destructive to a small aircraft.
The reason I am writing this is because I find it difficult to believe that any one would deliberately fly so low as to hit a 40 foot dune. If the aircraft had hit something at, say, 500 feet or above one could think of many reasons how it happened.
I have no idea how much data is recorded on these aircraft. So everything would be second guessed and mistakes of the PIC are an easy peg to hang the blame on.
RIP guys.
I do not know that area, but getting visual over the ocean pretty low, I can see happening. It would not take much of an event/distraction to lose a few precious feet in the tropical weather of the day.
Interesting the WX recorded is not matching with witness reports or a reported text image of the second attempt to land.
I have seen a few "local procedures" for use in adverse weather that involve personal units - not suggesting that is the case here.
RIP & condolences to all involved.
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[QUOTE=Bend alot;10713405]
Actually there is quite a lot of information available from the GPS chip so long as it wasn't damaged in the crash. If the G forces are high enough the chip will crack and that makes it impossible to read. Getting visual over the sea on a rainy/misty day can be a real b*****d as the horizon disappears into the murk and one has to be very careful that you are not losing altitude. This is especially so if you are beyond visual range of the land.
Not much data is recorded if any on these aircraft, there may be some limited data on some avionics upgrade such as the GPS. I expect that there could be some cell phone data that could shed some light on the final moments.
I do not know that area, but getting visual over the ocean pretty low, I can see happening. It would not take much of an event/distraction to lose a few precious feet in the tropical weather of the day.
Interesting the WX recorded is not matching with witness reports or a reported text image of the second attempt to land.
I have seen a few "local procedures" for use in adverse weather that involve personal units - not suggesting that is the case here.
RIP & condolences to all involved.
I do not know that area, but getting visual over the ocean pretty low, I can see happening. It would not take much of an event/distraction to lose a few precious feet in the tropical weather of the day.
Interesting the WX recorded is not matching with witness reports or a reported text image of the second attempt to land.
I have seen a few "local procedures" for use in adverse weather that involve personal units - not suggesting that is the case here.
RIP & condolences to all involved.
Never been there but: Can arrival times be tweaked to a safer time of the day - is the weather consistently nasty early in the morning and better (say) in the afternoon?
Unfortunately an Approach Ban rule wouldnt help here though. It needs real time visibility and ceiling to be reported to the crew. So basically it would only work at towered airports.