Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by OCTA Aus

There is no requirement to call ATC prior to operating in Class E as a VFR aircraft. The expectation is that you are equipped with a radio capable of maintaining continuous 2 way comms and you are monitoring the appropriate area frequency.

Avalon is special and the ATC makes up their own rules around this. When they yell at you, you generally don’t do it again next time.

[CaptainMidnight]

That note on the ML VTC to the NW of the AVV airspace used to say something about the area being a broadcast area and mandatory fitment and use of transponder and radio was required.

CASA had it put there when the AVV Class E was first established (2010/2011?), to theoretically prevent no transponder and no-radio aircraft including gliders and hang gliders etc. from transiting the Class E.

It was pointed out to them that 1) there was no legal basis behind the note as it wasn't a declared BA with requirements specified by Instrument, and 2) the content conflicted with normal Class E requirements. At some point they must have subsequently agreed and thought the note had probably served its original purpose, and changed the content to its current reading.

[George Glass]

I have always thought it amusing , in a dark sort of way , when in an RPT jet descending from controlled airspace into Class E giving an all stations broadcast then.......silence. First contact on CTAF frequency........beep back. Then silence....... How would you ever know........
Just rolling the dice.

[Lead Balloon]

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

That note on the ML VTC to the NW of the AVV airspace used to say something about the area being a broadcast area and mandatory fitment and use of transponder and radio was required.

CASA had it put there when the AVV Class E was first established (2010/2011?), to theoretically prevent no transponder and no-radio aircraft including gliders and hang gliders etc. from transiting the Class E.

It was pointed out to them that 1) there was no legal basis behind the note as it wasn't a declared BA with requirements specified by Instrument, and 2) the content conflicted with normal Class E requirements. At some point they must have subsequently agreed and thought the note had probably served its original purpose, and changed the content to its current reading.

But evidently Airservices, or at least the Airservices staff that work the airspace, didn’t get or read that memo.

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

There you go, Andrew. The Cap’n has solved your problem.

I know how to do it, I'm just trying to figure out whether it is required. (What the rules say, not whether it is a good idea... which in the case of Avalon it obviously is.)

Opinions might vary though depending on whether you're transiting Avalon at 3500 or passing Shepparton at 9500.

I dug out an old AIP and that had the same wording, so it's not a recent change like I thought it might be.

[Lead Balloon]

Just for ****s and giggles, why don’t you write to OAR in CASA and ask?

[uncle8]

I fly past Avalon quite a bit, always in G, just for the sake of peace and quietness. I'll be there again soon and plan to whistle straight through the E, just for practice, and it will save me 5 minutes. I might submit a flight plan but will definitely not initiate any transmissions unless called upon. I think that if we are flying in E we should adopt E procedures, even if we think that there are other "good ideas".
I see that there might be some problems, southbound, if you are flying near Barwon Heads, one radio, might be a late change to the CTAF.
Will be happy to report my experience.

[Squawk7700]

I’ve done it half a dozen times over the last 2 years and it’s very clear that they like to know who you are. If there is any other aircraft in the vicinity the controller would call me up and ask my intentions, sometimes before entering the E.

[uncle8]

That makes sense, we will expect that. If I were the controller, I would do that too, get the full picture, early.

[OCTA Aus]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

I’ve done it half a dozen times over the last 2 years and it’s very clear that they like to know who you are. If there is any other aircraft in the vicinity the controller would call me up and ask my intentions, sometimes before entering the E.

Thats why you’re meant to be monitoring the appropriate area frequency in class E. That way if the controller needs to talk to you they can. But they won’t issue VFR a control instruction. They can however give a strong suggestion....

[uncle8]

And the VFR can be receptive to it.

[George Glass]

The last few posts have just demonstrated what a horses ar#e the system is , and why its loathed by professional aviators.
Just rolling the dice.

[Sunfish]

So when it’s Class C, VFR Aircraft will be excluded when there is a jet within a hundred miles and RAA aircraft permanently excluded? Because Bloggs thinks all light aircraft pilots are dangerous amateurs despite being licensed?

That will kill a few light aircraft pilots every winter. Sometimes the safest way into Melbourne from the West, or North is to stay South and East of the YouYangs.

[Lead Balloon]

Originally Posted by George Glass

The last few posts have just demonstrated what a horses ar#e the system is , and why its loathed by professional aviators.
Just rolling the dice.

It would be interesting to calculate:

(1) the volume of the chunks of E between the 8nm ARP and 12nm DME arcs to the north and south of Avalon, and

(2) the cost of the resources diverted to designation/AIP revisions/airspace reviews etc arising from that airspace.

It may well be the highest ratio of bureaucratic bull****-to-cubic kilometre of airspace on the planet.

[Sunfish]

Flying VFR, Avalon tower always asks for your intentions and it had better be a straight line transit.

The strangest thing was when I was tracking to Leopold and over Point Henry having tracked over the ARP, ATC asked where I was, so I told them:”over point Henry 2500 on track for Leopold(which is a VFR waypoint).

‘’They came back with “range and bearing please, we don’t have that detail on our screen and we don’t know where that is” WTF?

Are IFR JET Pilots and ATC deliberately trying to be autistic or what?

[Lead Balloon]

If it weren’t Australia, I’d say: Astonishing.

But as it’s Australia...

[Mr Approach]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

That is not what I was getting at at all. That bloke didn't even make any calls on "Area"/the Class E freq until he was through 6000ft, creating a Mangalore-type scenario. But that's beside the point. My issue, and what an IFR Pickup procedure is, is when you ask ATC for a clearance, they so "not available" (obviously due to traffic in the proximity) and the pilot then changes to VFR so they can continue in E. It's as if, magically, all the separation problems go away and the other traffic disappears when they switch to VFR. This is of course nonsense, and the other aircraft (with the clearance) has now been put in a potentially threatening and certainly unknown situation because of the IFR Pickup pilot, until and if ATC hop in and start providing DTI to both parties so they (the pilots) can sort it out.

Capn - the issue you seem to have problem with is whether VFR works in terms of separation, if it does not then stay away from the Bankstown training area.
In Class E if a clearance cannot be given immediately, in the US, the controller is able to give the VFR pilot traffic advisories to assist with his/her visual separation with the conflicting traffic. (Don't forget the controller needs 3 or 5 NM separation to be able to issue a clearance, whereas two pilots just have to miss each other) Alternatively, once the VFR traffic is identified, a suggested heading can be given that would create the separation standard, and once the aircraft is seen to be tracking on the suggested heading and 3/5 NM from the conflicting traffic a clearance can be given.

As for the Premier jet not calling on the area frequency, in the US there is no VFR requirement for that. I suggest he would have been listening on his other radio, but why load up busy ATC frequencies with VFR aircraft reports? Australia has made a dog's breakfast out of this issue since the ATSB report in 1991 "the limitations of see and avoid"

[George Glass]

“Are IFR JET Pilots and ATC deliberately trying to be autistic or what?”

Putting aside the gratuitous insult , this thread has drifted to an argument about specific problems at Avalon etc. By far the bigger problem is in regional WA , NT and Queensland. Its not about the rights of PPL or RA pilots versus RPT pilots . Its about the safety , reliability and robustness of the system . To those of us who do battle with it on a daily basis there are issues of grave concern . I sincerely hope we keep getting away with it , but I’ll say it again.......
Its just rolling the dice.

[Awol57]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

Flying VFR, Avalon tower always asks for your intentions and it had better be a straight line transit.

The strangest thing was when I was tracking to Leopold and over Point Henry having tracked over the ARP, ATC asked where I was, so I told them:”over point Henry 2500 on track for Leopold(which is a VFR waypoint).

‘’They came back with “range and bearing please, we don’t have that detail on our screen and we don’t know where that is” WTF?

Are IFR JET Pilots and ATC deliberately trying to be autistic or what?

Which ATC unit? As a tower controller I can't imagine that happening as we generally know our landmarks, and it took me all of 5 seconds to find both points on a VTC (and I am not familiar with the Melbourne basin except in the broadest sense). Every tower I have worked at has all sorts of maps readily available. Pretty sure even the TCU has an assortment of maps right above their workstation but I don't know for sure what they have displayed.

[Piston_Broke]

AV TWR and APP both know where LPD is, and both have the ML VTC displayed.

AV TWR also has a TSAD. The fact that

ATC asked where I was

suggests someone's transponder wasn't working or there was some other issue.