Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

[Lead Balloon]

Gawd, Andrew. This has been done to death many times.

VFR aircraft entering Class E do not have to contact Centre. VFR entering and operating in Class E must be able to communicate on the Class E frequency.

[Sunfish]

The trap Andrew is at the Southern end of the Avalon airspace where the lower level changes from 2500 to 1500 where you least expect it.

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

VFR aircraft entering Class E do not have to contact Centre. VFR entering and operating in Class E must be able to communicate on the Class E frequency.

That's what I would have said. But then I looked it up in AIP and it didn't say what I expected and now I don't understand. AIP ENR page 1.4-9 says VFR in Class E requires continuous 2 way communication.

What is "Continuous 2 way" radio communication? I fly around in Class G listening on Area, but I would not call that 2 way. My understanding of 2 way is that ATC must be able to direct communication to you specifically via your call sign and know you are listening i.e. it requires a check in. That is spelled out explicitly for Class D.

Or are different definitions of 2 way communication used for Class E and Class D, and e.g. IFR in Class G?

[buckshot1777]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

The trap Andrew is at the Southern end of the Avalon airspace where the lower level changes from 2500 to 1500 where you least expect it.

That CTA base 1500FT step to the south - and the one north - have been there since CTA was established at AVV (30-40 years ago??).

A CTA base 1500FT (or thereabouts) step is common adjacent to most CTRs, to contain aircraft in CTA on descent and climbout.

Its a matter of reading the charts.

Continuous two-way comms for Class E means capable of continuous two-way comms, but don't ask me where the distinction is in AIP.

FWIW almost all aircraft call AVV APP transiting the Class E there, probably not a bad thing due to the amount of PTO and IFR training aircraft.

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

The trap Andrew is at the Southern end of the Avalon airspace where the lower level changes from 2500 to 1500 where you least expect it.

I can see the airspace, but I'm not sure what was the effect. Was there something you did or didn't do that was different than what you were supposed to do? Theoretically there should not be much difference for VFR - aside from which frequency you should be listening on. What additional training do you think VFR pilots need?

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by buckshot1777

Continuous two-way comms for Class E means capable of continuous two-way comms, but don't ask me where the distinction is in AIP.

Is that different to VFR Class G above 5000 feet?
VHF radio required for OPS above 5,000FT AMSL and at aerodromes where carriage and use of radio is required
Presumably that also means a radio capable of 2 way comms but the requirement is worded very differently.

If you were accused of entering Class E without contacting ATC and establishing 2 way communications what evidence would you use to argue that it wasn't required?

[uncle8]

I think that there should be a brown line along the 8nm Avalon arc, on the VTC, to emphasise that there is a change to the E airspace. There are green and blue lines for G and C/D, why not brown?

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by uncle8

I think that there should be a brown line along the 8nm Avalon arc, on the VTC, to emphasise that there is a change to the E airspace. There are green and blue lines for G and C/D, why not brown?

I see what you mean. I think they have made life difficult for themselves by making an E-G-E sandwich which is difficult to represent on a 2D chart. There is E from 1500/2500-4500, and from FL180-FL245. Whatever boundaries they depict are going to be wrong for one or the other but the lower level is more important. E at FL180 seems to be another example of implementing it where it is no use to anybody.

[Lead Balloon]

Re ‘continuous 2-way comms’ for VFR in E, I spend quite a bit of time VFR in E and have yet to be ‘chipped’ by Centre for not establishing comms before entry. However, I’ve ‘piped up’ when contacted or I consider it may help turn me from ‘unverified’ altitude traffic to ‘verified’. But you could give it a go, Andrew, if you are worried you won’t be able to prove you weren’t required to establish two way comms.

ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie”
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie”
[chirping crickets]
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie?”
ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie”
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie, what do you want?”
ABC: “To establish two-way communications”.
Centre: “Mission accomplished, Alpha Bravo Charlie”.

Re Avalon, ERSA used to say contact APP (or was it TWR?) before transitting the E VFR, but I guess someone pointed out that it’s either E or it isn’t. (Make up your mind OAR....) The charting of the E boundaries (or more accurately, the gaps in and the missing brown lines) are bound to confuse. Why does Point Cook justify a Romeo?

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Mr Approach

Captain Bloggs - You ask "Did the inventors of IFR Pickups actually think sane pilots would just go VFR, look out the front and hope that she'll be right??"

Yes - that is exactly what they do, see this You Tube video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJcEeKzeb5A> The Premier jet departs uncontrolled airport MIles City VFR and at 9000 feet requests an IFR clearance to Vancouver from Salt Lake (ATC) Centre. In the US it is not called an IFR pick up, as I recall Dick Smith invented that term so that Australians might understand the process. To an American pilot it is an activation of his/her filed IFR flight plan and can take place through a Tower in Class C or D airspace,

That is not what I was getting at at all. That bloke didn't even make any calls on "Area"/the Class E freq until he was through 6000ft, creating a Mangalore-type scenario. But that's beside the point. My issue, and what an IFR Pickup procedure is, is when you ask ATC for a clearance, they so "not available" (obviously due to traffic in the proximity) and the pilot then changes to VFR so they can continue in E. It's as if, magically, all the separation problems go away and the other traffic disappears when they switch to VFR. This is of course nonsense, and the other aircraft (with the clearance) has now been put in a potentially threatening and certainly unknown situation because of the IFR Pickup pilot, until and if ATC hop in and start providing DTI to both parties so they (the pilots) can sort it out.

[buckshot1777]

There is of course the airspace label there specifying the LL & UL and the CASA airspace review does mention clarifying the airspace information

https://consultation.casa.gov.au/sta...eview_2019.pdf

If/when it goes from E to D I guess the matter will be sorted anyway.

The restricted areas at PCK activated by NOTAM are there for the RAAF Museum displays.

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Lead Balon

ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie”
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie”
[chirping crickets]
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie?”
ABC: “Centre this is Alpha Bravo Charlie”
Centre: “Alpha Bravo Charlie, what do you want?”
ABC: “To establish two-way communications”.
Centre: “Mission accomplished, Alpha Bravo Charlie”.

Seriously??

What about "Centre, Alpha Bravo Charlie, Radio check"
"Loud and Clear"
"ABC".

[Lead Balloon]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Seriously??

What about "Centre, Alpha Bravo Charlie, Radio check"
"Loud and Clear"
"ABC".

There you go, Andrew. The Cap’n has solved your problem.

[Lead Balloon]

The restricted areas at PCK activated by NOTAM are there for the RAAF Museum displays.

Is it really “activated” by NOTAM?

ERSA says R330A is “TUE,THU,SUN 0315-0345 (1HR EARLIER HDS) or as amended by NOTAM“.

Looks to me like there’s a “default” period which applies unless amended by NOTAM.

(Three half-hour displays each week must be exciting!)

[buckshot1777]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

Is it really “activated” by NOTAM?

ERSA says R330A is “TUE,THU,SUN 0315-0345 (1HR EARLIER HDS) or as amended by NOTAM“.

Looks to me like there’s a “default” period which applies unless amended by NOTAM.

Yep, my bad. The areas are active via published times.

[OCTA Aus]

Originally Posted by andrewr

That's what I would have said. But then I looked it up in AIP and it didn't say what I expected and now I don't understand. AIP ENR page 1.4-9 says VFR in Class E requires continuous 2 way communication.

What is "Continuous 2 way" radio communication? I fly around in Class G listening on Area, but I would not call that 2 way. My understanding of 2 way is that ATC must be able to direct communication to you specifically via your call sign and know you are listening i.e. it requires a check in. That is spelled out explicitly for Class D.

Or are different definitions of 2 way communication used for Class E and Class D, and e.g. IFR in Class G?

There is no requirement to call ATC prior to operating in Class E as a VFR aircraft. The expectation is that you are equipped with a radio capable of maintaining continuous 2 way comms and you are monitoring the appropriate area frequency.

[Stickshift3000]

Originally Posted by andrewr

If you were accused of entering Class E without contacting ATC and establishing 2 way communications what evidence would you use to argue that it wasn't required?

On my PPL flight test Avalon ATC advised me that I hadn't established comms upon entry to their Class E. Back on the ground, the examiner (thankfully) disagreed with ATC's advice.

I now call up Avalon App with my intentions, if just for good practice.

[Lead Balloon]

That may have been back in the day when there was a requirement (or maybe a ‘recommendation’) in ERSA to make contact before entering the Avalon E?

[Stickshift3000]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

That may have been back in the day when there was a requirement (or maybe a ‘recommendation’) in ERSA to make contact before entering the Avalon E?

It was 2018...

[Lead Balloon]

Originally Posted by Stickshift3000

It was 2018...

Hmmmm. Someone in Airservices must have missed the memo...