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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

Old 20th Feb 2020, 02:22
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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I also read the words “free speech” in there of which we are all entitled to.
In Australia, you are not entitled to 'free speech'
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 02:29
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Discussion publically about possibilities, prior to any formal investigation, with a colonial inquest pending, is called subjudice, and also professional ignorance.

This has no place on a professional forum.
Beg to differ tio, I'd go so far as to say rubbish in fact, you might wish to cast about on PPRuNe Rotorheads for discussion on the Kobe S-76, S-92 SAR in Ireland for how professional aviators discuss fatal accidents. Then you have the Pelair ditching at Norfolk, Shoreham air show Hunter, AF447, MH370, MH17 etc etc. None of these to be discussed until the coroner makes his/her report? PPRuNe would collapse for lack of discourse. If you know people involved it is always particularly stressing
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 03:19
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Don't expect a report any time soon.

The oldest incident on the ATSB website that the report is still yet to be released is this tragedy:

Collision with terrain involving Cessna 441, VH-XMJ, near Renmark Airport, South Australia, on 30 May 2017.

=13pxThere are older incidents on the ATSB website without final reports, but the release date is either N/A, or the investigation discontinued.

I note with interest that an accident at YLEC last winter that resulted in two deaths has been handed back to the RAus to investigate, which left me gobsmacked.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 03:32
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by outnabout View Post
I note with interest that an accident at YLEC last winter that resulted in two deaths has been handed back to the RAus to investigate, which left me gobsmacked.
RA-Aus are more than capable of investigating this crash.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 04:27
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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I suggest petty squabbles be fought out via private messages. It would be a shame for this thread to be closed so soon.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 04:55
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tio540 View Post
Discussion publically about possibilities, prior to any formal investigation, with a colonial inquest pending, is called subjudice, and also professional ignorance.

This has no place on a professional forum.
Rubbish. This is exactly where it belongs.

Quite apart from anything else, if this sort of discussion was banned on PPRuNe then the only source of information for the media would be Geoffrey Bloody Thomas.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 05:23
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by outnabout View Post
I note with interest that an accident at YLEC last winter that resulted in two deaths has been handed back to the RAus to investigate, which left me gobsmacked.
ATSB said they would help with the investigation if asked. Obviously they weren't.

DF.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 05:29
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ZAZ View Post
This is a trauma, affects us all in some way.
Yes indeed it does. I knew CG from my Air BP days.

DF.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 06:03
  #89 (permalink)  
ZAZ
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Victoria
Posts: 81
dont shoot messengers

Hey Rubber Duck,

You dont think we can comment about what was an obvious breakdown in the system?
Four pairs of eyes ears four radios, adsb.
I fly that vor every year to renew have 30 renewals.
I fly MTG vor three times a year never have issues with inbound REX rpt get told about them 50 miles out.
So what went wrong with seperation standards?
The route SHT MNG WNG very busy weekdays
lots of ctaf frequencies and yes the radio chatter is loud but you must deal with it and as casa keep harping develope a situational awareness.

I am worried, concerned and need to know what went wrong.
Might be my mistake next, so what was the mistake.
So far at mng had near miss with a croppie, missed by 200 feet
but ifr to ifr collision?
unheard of.
Bendigo guy check captain thousands of hours..
other guy
CFI Tyabb.
thousands of hours experience but it did not save them.

why?


Last edited by ZAZ; 20th Feb 2020 at 06:14.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 06:50
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Forget the Rubber Ducks and associates above. They pop up for their sad attempted relevance in these sorts of discussions on a regular basis.

I’m as concerned as you are. But I have little faith in the time it’s going to take to get an answer. 30 Day/12 Month Investigation should be mandated in such series cases. Common in the USA, and even some deprived Asian neighbours. 30 Day Prelim report. Full Report at 12 months. If things are dragging on they pump in more resources to get it done. When these sort of events happen, they are also very quick with the media and public around this. See you in 30 days.

Others adhere to these timeframes because they have solid resources behind the investigations. There is no extensions, the times are the times. We get the answers.

I have recently been involved in a report dating back 5 years. We provided all the details and interviews etc 5 years ago. Between my machine and the other guy it was 500 odd pax between us, so fairly important I thought. We heard nothing until 5 years later when started sending nasty emails to them after ongoing excuses of delays due to no logical reason. The reason appears to be they have no staff. My employer also got nothing. What really got me was they had a estimated time of completion, yet that time had passed by 10 months. The end result was beyond laughable. Nobody learnt anything aside myself and my FO, we came to our own common sense conclusion, but the other guy who stuffed up learnt sweet all and still buzzes around us today.

Expect a report in the year 2022.

Last edited by PoppaJo; 20th Feb 2020 at 07:01.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 08:32
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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We were let down when bureaucracy and cost cutting reduced the airways work load with the killing of flight service and associated services

The CTAF system for airports in busy airspace and the risk of missing radio calls whilst aircraft are on different frequencies was bound to cause a mid-air.

General Aviation is seen as nuisance to Air Services despite the fees we pay. Our airways system is not as safe as it once was.

My thoughts are with everybody who is in mourning right now with this unthinkable accident.

Ultimately some bureaucrats have blood on their hands ..
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 09:40
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 1a sound asleep View Post
Ultimately some bureaucrats have blood on their hands ..
There's your bull shit quote of the year. You have again used an incident to push some agenda that is completely unrelated. You know virtually nothing.

Might as well blame the chick serving maccas on their way to the airport.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 10:44
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by iron_jayeh View Post
Might as well blame the chick serving maccas on their way to the airport.
Don’t give them ideas....
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 21:07
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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There are really only 2 questions that need to be answered:
Were they both IFR?
Were they in class G airspace?

If the answer to both is yes, then this is the Australian system Working As Designed.

We know aircraft in IMC cannot adequately self separate - that is why ATC was invented. We get away with it in Australia most of the time because IFR traffic is relatively low. We have rejected Class E (radar or procedural) designed to prevent this type of accident.
We knew the risk was there. We knew a collision between IFR aircraft in Class G would happen eventually. We know it will happen again eventually if the current system is maintained long enough.

We also know the solution: Class E airspace. Or perhaps these days a technology solution would be appropriate - make some form of TCAS mandatory for IFR aircraft.

A 3 year inquiry might find something the pilots did or didn't do that might have prevented the accident. But that would be a distraction. The real issue is we have IFR without ATC separation, and that means collisions will occur.
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 21:38
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewr View Post
We also know the solution: Class E airspace. Or perhaps these days a technology solution would be appropriate - make some form of TCAS mandatory for IFR aircraft.
One option would be instigated by a body that has millions of dollars in capital, the manpower and the expertise to quickly implement the solution.

The other option will force GA operators and private owners to spend more money (just like ADSB) to upgrade their aircraft in a market where they’re already ripped off. Thus grounding IFR fleets everywhere and further crippling the industry.

Let me guess which way the government will go....
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 22:03
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Threw together a 3-D rendering, southerly view, looks like JQF was flying level, AEM descended into him...


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Old 20th Feb 2020, 22:06
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Oops-
Can't post images yet, here's a link to a image host-

i.imgurDOTcom/WEo5Bvl.jpg (Replace 'DOT' with period '.' )
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Old 20th Feb 2020, 22:59
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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That is amazing when you look at it graphically as you have done with the plots.

If there was just two seconds either way with either aircraft, 20 feet different in altitude, then we wouldn't have had this accident.


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Old 20th Feb 2020, 23:01
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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The last ADSB data from AEM shows it passing 4250' and descending at 1216'fpm at 190kt gs. The stamp before was at 4500' descending at 832' fpm .
The last ADSB from JQF was level at 4100'. 2 stamps before it was climbing at 1152' passing 4000'

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Old 20th Feb 2020, 23:19
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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No doubt some of you will be seeing some of the images of the people killed by 3rd world airspace popping up on facebook, the media etc. Ignorance, belligerence, political incompetence and outdated, cheap and nasty airspace now has a human face. Four of them. Take a good look at them. Killed by indifference.

Devastating to see the smiling faces of people who've had a positive impact on those around them. I knew one of them, I knew of two others. and another foreign student going home in a box.
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