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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

Old 4th Jun 2020, 12:40
  #661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,203
Squawk, can you suggest easily available and cheap adsb-in solutions for skyview?
Sunfish is offline  
Old 4th Jun 2020, 13:54
  #662 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Squawk, can you suggest easily available and cheap adsb-in solutions for skyview?
Dynon sell their own one. As to whether itís cheap, will it depends what your life is worth to you.

My ADSB-In has saved my bacon on one occasion and I consider it to be priceless. It was a high speed twin passing across my front from right to left and in my blind-spot. I had zero idea it was there otherwise. I watched it coming from 10 miles out on the screen and we would have come within less than 100 metres without the forewarning.


I might make up a YouTube video to show how well it works. Thereís plenty of units available that do the job. If someone knows a good way to way record from the iPad screen, please PM me.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 21:39
  #663 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Peninsula
Posts: 188
Camtasia maybe?

(hurdy-hurdy-hurdy, filler)
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 02:12
  #664 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,675
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that pretty much all the ADS-B in traffic solutions are UNCERTIFIED. That is, they are not legal for use in IFR - or situations such as this accident.

As i understand it, unlike the USA, Australia elected the ADS-B out only system. The proper certified ADS-B in and out system would require AsA to invest in a network of transmitters.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the traffic display via the 4G network offered by AvPlan & Ozrunways is not a good thing. As is the Stratux reciever, the Stratus receiver, The Dual XGPS190, Sage clarity, Dynon DRX, etc. These systems work relatively well in VFR type situations at low level and in 4G areas, but at higher altitudes, remote areas, congested areas and outside 4G areas they cannot be relied upon at all.

But none of these systems are a) fully reliable or b) part of the Government designed airways system. In the wake of this accident we, as IFR pilots need to do 2 things:
1. Learn what we can from the accident and figure out how to stay safe in an imperfect airways system and an imperfect AsA system and
2. Keep the pressure on AsA to fix its problem areas.

I don't like the notion that if we all just connect a a Stratux receiver to our iPads or an uncertified Dynon display that the problem goes away. we deserve a more robust system that has AsA sanction.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2020, 03:10
  #665 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by Old Akro View Post
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that pretty much all the ADS-B in traffic solutions are UNCERTIFIED. That is, they are not legal for use in IFR - or situations such as this accident.

As i understand it, unlike the USA, Australia elected the ADS-B out only system. The proper certified ADS-B in and out system would require AsA to invest in a network of transmitters.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the traffic display via the 4G network offered by AvPlan & Ozrunways is not a good thing. As is the Stratux reciever, the Stratus receiver, The Dual XGPS190, Sage clarity, Dynon DRX, etc. These systems work relatively well in VFR type situations at low level and in 4G areas, but at higher altitudes, remote areas, congested areas and outside 4G areas they cannot be relied upon at all.

But none of these systems are a) fully reliable or b) part of the Government designed airways system. In the wake of this accident we, as IFR pilots need to do 2 things:
1. Learn what we can from the accident and figure out how to stay safe in an imperfect airways system and an imperfect AsA system and
2. Keep the pressure on AsA to fix its problem areas.

I don't like the notion that if we all just connect a a Stratux receiver to our iPads or an uncertified Dynon display that the problem goes away. we deserve a more robust system that has AsA sanction.
I'll be happy to correct your misconceptions. ADS-B IN does not require any ground support. Certainly not 4G. What it does, is listen to the ADS-B broadcasts of aircraft it can see, sort of like TCAS, only this is receive only, no additional transmitters are required since all aircraft are transmitting their position/speed asynchrously, all the time. So what you need is a receiver that can hear the other aircraft and display their position and direction relative to your position and direction -- easily done since the GPS coordinates are part of the packet. There are no altitude constraints, or geography constraints. The only requirement is that you can hear the other's ADS-B transmission.

I don't know of any "IN" systems that are "certified". Certified for what? You aren't using the information for navigation, only for situational awareness. If you can't get your ATC to call out the conflicts, this seems to me to be a good backup plan. If your VFR potential conflicts don't have ADS-B, this won't help. But my understanding is that all of your IFR traffic has ADS-B. Of course, you are welcome to ignore the information.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 03:16
  #666 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California
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Originally Posted by Old Akro View Post
As i understand it, unlike the USA, Australia elected the ADS-B out only system. The proper certified ADS-B in and out system would require AsA to invest in a network of transmitters.
The USA system differs from the Australian system in that there are two different ADS-B frequencies, one for GA (below 18000 feet) and one for everyone else. The Transmitters in the US system rebroadcast between the two frequencies, so that everyone sees all the traffic. This is not necessary where everyone is on the same (1090) frequency. The US system also uses the GA frequency to broadcast weather, metars, and other information, but this facility is not part of the Australian ADS-B requirement. So, no ground transmitters required.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 03:16
  #667 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
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Originally Posted by MarcK View Post
<snip> I don't know of any "IN" systems that are "certified". Certified for what? You aren't using the information for navigation, only for situational awareness. If you can't get your ATC to call out the conflicts, this seems to me to be a good backup plan.<snip>.
Errrrm. Just errrmmm.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2020, 03:36
  #668 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: YMML
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Old Akro, do some research* on 1090es and UAT so you can understand the difference. 1090es is a transponder, UAT is not! UAT requires ground transmitters, supplies radar returns as well as ground received 1090es as well as weather information. It operates on 978mhz and only works within range of a ground station. TCAS does not see UAT hence the need to also carry a transponder. A 1090es in or ADS-B Rx receives the extended squitter message regardless of ground station coverage..twice a second..(UAT data is twice a minute.)

* The AirServices article refers to TIS-B in the US 1090ES equipment actually receiving TIS-B (new one on me).

For my thoughts? I still believe the issue lies in separate CTAF and mandated verbal diarrhea. Also,CTAF does not have a facility to record transmissions.

Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 7th Jun 2020 at 03:47.
OZBUSDRIVER is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2020, 04:26
  #669 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,250
If it is E airspace to 700 agl as per the FAA the pilot remains on the ATC frequency when in cloud.

A VFR aircraft wanting to enter the airspace if cloud was at the minima would have to get a special VFR clearance from ATC.

Itís a fail safe system that does not require a pilot to be on two frequencies at one time.

Works superbly in the USA.
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2020, 04:55
  #670 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 252
TIS/B and ADS/B IN

There is a description of the TIS/B and ADS/B IN systems in the Benefits of Surveillance paper prepared in response to the CASA RFQ 09/327.

MJG
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