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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

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Accident Near Mangalore Airport - Possibly 2 Aircraft down

Old 16th Mar 2020, 12:05
  #521 (permalink)  
 
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traffic, in your way of thinking, you only work out the costs AFTER THE ACCIDENT. Then you say to yourself “jeez, if we had spent $100,000 per year to prevent the accident it would have been money well spent.”.

Risk management calculations allow allow you to make the costs decision without waiting for the accident.

To put that another way. You can calculate what it’s worth to stop the accident and I assure you, you will think it’s a good deal.
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 12:15
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
TThe stupidity extends further to requiring an annual government dividend.
I doubt they'll be any dividend this FY nor the next. In fact, the government may be forced to chip in this FY.
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 12:53
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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Occasional flights into Ballina (and Lismore); I find the Unicom is more of a hindrance than a help, too much repetition of previously made (and already heard) calls tying up the radio.

Unicom operators definitely need training in how to value add if Unicoms are to work.

Doesn't help that Lismore is on the same frequency.
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 18:15
  #524 (permalink)  
 
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To my knowledge there has never been a mid air collision in controlled airspace in this country.
I know it's not helpful to come back and say 'but I meant'

But I mean controlled airspace, not a GAAP/Class D Metro, where you aren't subject to a separation service (unless IFR in IMC)

Of the 37 mid-airs between 1968 and 2003:

Fifteen of the collisions in or near the circuit area occurred at one of the five major general aviation airports; that is, Archerfield, Bankstown, Jandakot, Parafield or Moorabbin. Thirteen of these collisions occurred during tower operating hours.
Which would muddy the stats a little.

And of course, Coolangatta 1998
I will have to find this and read it.
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 18:23
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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Seriously a UNICOM service could make all the difference, for a number of reasons. Don't wait for the Government - we should do it ourselves.
The nature of the rapid frequency transfers from Terminal to Centre, to receive traffic, then to CTAF to arrange segregation with aircraft then to Unicom would further complicate the process. Arriving into MNG from the South is extremely high workload when MNG is busy.
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 19:53
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hoosten View Post

I know it's not helpful to come back and say 'but I meant'

But I mean controlled airspace, not a GAAP/Class D Metro, where you aren't subject to a separation service (unless IFR in IMC)



Which would muddy the stats a little.



I will have to find this and read it.


Jandakot and Hoxton part has had some collisions. At least one of those was just after the tower closed from memory. Moorabbin has the shocker fireball at night after tower closed.
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 21:47
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ftrplt View Post
Occasional flights into Ballina (and Lismore); I find the Unicom is more of a hindrance than a help, too much repetition of previously made (and already heard) calls tying up the radio.

Unicom operators definitely need training in how to value add if Unicoms are to work.
BNA isn't a UNICOM - its a CAGRS, and they are all ex-ATCs .....
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Old 16th Mar 2020, 23:03
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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Jandakot and Hoxton part has had some collisions. At least one of those was just after the tower closed from memory. Moorabbin has the shocker fireball at night after tower closed.
Jandakot is a Class D Metro, i.e no separation service to traffic unless you're IFR in IMC.

Hoxton, Non-Towered Aerodrome.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 01:12
  #529 (permalink)  
 
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Hoosten - in every comment you make you expose the ridiculousness of our current system.
When I watch the videos of the US system, I recommended, I do not see pilots doing "rapid frequency transfers from Terminal to Centre, to receive traffic, then to CTAF to arrange segregation with aircraft then to Unicom".
First there is no mandatory traffic information in Class G airspace in the US, if IFR you would be separated from other IFR down to 1200 or 700 feet AGL; that is the Centre (I am not sure what Terminal is in your email) The CTAF is the other frequency you guard and if there is a UNICOM the operator would be on the same frequency, as per our legislation.

So two frequencies, on one you are being vectored to an instrument approach, and if you say you are visual you will be assigned a visual approach. (If you do not want a visual approach do not report visual). The CTAF is where you will hear the VFR traffic, but if the Centre controller can see any VFR traffic he/she thinks might affect your flight, it will be passed. (In Australia this is also a duty of care issue for the ATC)
If it is not hard in the US why is it so hard in Australia? My answer is because of the Class G, IFR pilots are having to separate themselves with other IFR pilots, conducting practice instrument approaches. Centre is passing traffic, but pilot has to self-separate while also keeping eyes and ears open for VFR traffic. It's no wonder that "Arriving into MNG from the South is extremely high workload when MNG is busy"

Last comment "Jandakot is a Class D Metro, i.e no separation service to traffic unless you're IFR in IMC" Strictly correct however Class D airspace was identified and codified by ICAO by observing what control towers do with traffic in the air traffic zone (ATZ), a term not used in Australia. Class D should be circuit area size (5NM if surrounded by Class E but once again Australia is different) Basically pilots either enter as approved by ATC (Non-Metro Class D) or in accordance with a published procedure (Metro Class D). Both are designed to allow pilots to self-separate while positioning for circuit entry watched over by Tower ATC, who also regulates runway movements in accordance with ICAO or National regulations. In the US these are commonly referred to as VFR Towers because IFR aircraft are separated from other IFR aircraft by Centre onto instrument approaches, sequence information is given to the VFR tower, and the Tower then segregates the VFR traffic using circuit area instructions,from the aircraft on the instrument approach who call the Tower around ten miles. In other parts of the world this is ATC 101, but for some reason Australia went a different way.

We are far too heavily biased towards "revenue generating" airspace such as above FL180, the Oceanic areas and major terminal maneuvering areas (TMAs). Low level airspace around our smaller airports where statistically the accidents happen get no interest unless there is something that might embarrass the MInister, such as Jetstar complaining about Ballina.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 02:02
  #530 (permalink)  
 
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Hoosten - in every comment you make you expose the ridiculousness of our current system.
Mr Approach, I wish I was as eloquent and well spoken in trying to get my points across.

When I watch the videos of the US system, I recommended, I do not see pilots doing "rapid frequency transfers from Terminal to Centre, to receive traffic, then to CTAF to arrange segregation with aircraft then to Unicom".
I don't think there is another location in Australia that exposes just how serious the flaws are in how IFR OCTA is handled in Australia, to their credit, a lot of the Terminal Controllers get you across to Centre as soon as possible, but it is still extremely busy (at times)

First there is no mandatory traffic information in Class G airspace in the US, if IFR you would be separated from other IFR down to 1200 or 700 feet AGL; that is the Centre (I am not sure what Terminal is in your email) The CTAF is the other frequency you guard and if there is a UNICOM the operator would be on the same frequency, as per our legislation.
When I say Terminal I mean APP/DEP.

So two frequencies, on one you are being vectored to an instrument approach, and if you say you are visual you will be assigned a visual approach. (If you do not want a visual approach do not report visual). The CTAF is where you will hear the VFR traffic, but if the Centre controller can see any VFR traffic he/she thinks might affect your flight, it will be passed. (In Australia this is also a duty of care issue for the ATC)
Simple huh?

If it is not hard in the US why is it so hard in Australia? My answer is because of the Class G, IFR pilots are having to separate themselves with other IFR pilots, conducting practice instrument approaches. Centre is passing traffic, but pilot has to self-separate while also keeping eyes and ears open for VFR traffic. It's no wonder that "Arriving into MNG from the South is extremely high workload when MNG is busy"
Whether people will admit it or not, people cannot handle that Dick knows what he is talking about, granted he is not a technical guru, but should he be? There was massive resistance to Dick inside certain quarters of ATC. Another problem being the minister for transport has always been a useful idiot. 8 National Party ministers for transport would be worth what? A 3rd year apprentice plasterer?

Last comment "Jandakot is a Class D Metro, i.e no separation service to traffic unless you're IFR in IMC" Strictly correct however Class D airspace was identified and codified by ICAO by observing what control towers do with traffic in the air traffic zone (ATZ), a term not used in Australia. Class D should be circuit area size (5NM if surrounded by Class E but once again Australia is different) Basically pilots either enter as approved by ATC (Non-Metro Class D) or in accordance with a published procedure (Metro Class D). Both are designed to allow pilots to self-separate while positioning for circuit entry watched over by Tower ATC, who also regulates runway movements in accordance with ICAO or National regulations. In the US these are commonly referred to as VFR Towers because IFR aircraft are separated from other IFR aircraft by Centre onto instrument approaches, sequence information is given to the VFR tower, and the Tower then segregates the VFR traffic using circuit area instructions from the aircraft on the instrument approach who call the Tower around ten miles. In other parts of the world this is ATC 101, but for some reason Australia went a different way.
Australia knows best, they do it with most things, bastardise, butcher and end up spending twice as much to rectify. MYKI Vs METRO (Houston). They simply refuse to buy proven off the shelf.

We are far too heavily biased towards "revenue generating" airspace such as above FL180, the Oceanic areas and major terminal maneuvering areas (TMAs). Low level airspace around our smaller airports where statistically the accidents happen get no interest unless there is something that might embarrass the MInister, such as Jetstar complaining about Ballina.
Greed knows no bounds, government greed, corporate greed (bonuses). And good ole user pays.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 03:43
  #531 (permalink)  
 
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question I have always wondered with E - what is the reasoning/advantage for E down to 1200 / 700 ? i.e why 1200'/700' - not something else?
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 04:03
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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8 National Party ministers for transport would be worth what? A 3rd year apprentice plasterer?
My apologies for the thread drift, but that right there is funny!
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 04:17
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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That’s being unfair to apprentice plasterers.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 04:56
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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I thought others may be interested in this article I wrote for The Australian on 1 April, 2016.

Particularly note my last words:

“Calling in the blind do it yourself airspace” will remain until a major accident with fatalities brings in the change. I despair!
It looks as if what I said was so true when it comes to Mangalore.

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Old 17th Mar 2020, 05:11
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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Nah........I’m not going to bite.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 05:12
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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I have just been told that with 19 fatalities over 3 months, if this keeps up we will end up with 76 fatalities per year. Let’s hope this is not going to happen. The normal fatality rate is about 21 per year.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 05:55
  #537 (permalink)  
 
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Any fatality is a worry Dick.
Unfortunately if people persist in committing aviation despite CAsA's best endeavours to stamp it out, there will be more.
Our safety record is way behind the USA statistically, that should tell us something, they have a GA industry, we have the ragged dregs
of what's left of one, but we still persist with the myth that ever increasing regulation will make us safer.

There is a rumour around that McBank affiliates have been telephoning airport leaseholders to ask if they are solvent with the current crisis.
Could it be that the major airports are a tad worried about their cash flow? or is McBank worried about their "Management Fees" and directors bonuses?
Passing strange.
At this time with the whole aviation industry rapidly arriving with their backs to the wall, is it time to suspend all Curfews and other restrictions that impinge on the whole industry? The rule book got thrown out with the 89 dispute to keep the country moving, are we at that time again?

Desperate times call for desperate measures, I tried to buy some black underwear at Target today, my white ones have printers ink stains all over them, out of stock dam it, this really is getting serious.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 05:57
  #538 (permalink)  
 
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That’s being unfair to apprentice plasterers.
I know, but I'm an ex-tradie myself (that's where I learn't my conversational skills) I had to pick a trade that wouldn't bust the bruthahood.
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 07:13
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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Dont worry Dick. This fatality rate is an anomaly.
Meanwhile refer to Dr (Smart) Aleck gobsmaking comment "that CASA is being prospective and etc" and you can see clearly what the regulator thinks about all this.
Using the Angel Flight "fix"... Charter operators , Flying Schools etc will have to have their aircraft 'annualed' every 50 hours. That should stop it
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Old 17th Mar 2020, 07:15
  #540 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
traffic, in your way of thinking, you only work out the costs AFTER THE ACCIDENT. Then you say to yourself “jeez, if we had spent $100,000 per year to prevent the accident it would have been money well spent.”.

Risk management calculations allow allow you to make the costs decision without waiting for the accident.

To put that another way. You can calculate what it’s worth to stop the accident and I assure you, you will think it’s a good deal.
Unicoms can't, by law, give traffic. Everything else they can provide is just a nice to have. Who pays the $100k per year for nice to haves? Pretty much no one in aviation. CA/GRO's provide a directed traffic service only, not separation, and they cost a sh*t load more than $100k a year. You want ATC? Put your hand in your pocket, and they better be deep.
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