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"Leaving FL" Call

Old 14th Feb 2020, 06:17
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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I'm with Wizofoz, I have just retired from Line-Flying but I distinctly remember this 'Melbourne thing'. Nobody else, anywhere in the Country seem to want it. Inbound to MEL from SYD it is common to get, "when ready descend to FL250". If you say " Leaving FL...…" old mate will instantly clear you to "continue descent to 9,000ft". If you don't say 'Leaving..blah blah" you will be ignored until on top of 9,000ft. In the end I just placed it into the 'Australian weirdo bin' and remembered to do it their way.
Then there was Darwin! I miss my flying but I don't miss flying in Australia.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 06:19
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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If English is not your 1st language then LEFT could be misunderstood as a direction of turn.Thus the word LEAVING.As to the requirement to report its part of the AIP.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 06:59
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz View Post
He DOESN'T ask for a leaving call- he gives "Descend when ready" then assumes you will give the leaving call.
Why wouldn't the call be "(e.g.) Melbourne Centre, VH-XXX Descending now." then?

"Leaving" is just as ambiguous as "Left". You could be "Leaving" to climb.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 07:31
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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ATC is, put simply, a control loop involving Radar Screen->ATCO->Pilot->Aircraft.

Control loops can operate in two different ways: The controlling agent can explicitly command and require immediate (allowing for known system latencies) response. Alternatively, the controlling agent can give autonomy to its control objects, in which case it requires to be informed of all relevant changes by those objects through what are normally called "interrupts".

Putting that back into human terms. If the ATCo offers a "descend when ready", with the operational advantages that entails, then the courtesy of the "leaving FL for FL" interrupt seems like not too much to ask in return.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 07:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Putting that back into human terms. If the ATCo offers a "descend when ready", with the operational advantages that entails, then the courtesy of the "leaving FL for FL" interrupt seems like not too much to ask in return.
let's be realistic here, they can't properly manage crossing times or speeds on STAR's as soon as more than 2 aircraft are arriving somewhere. Leaving the descent profile under the control of those flying the planes is probably going to offer a better outcome for everybody.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 09:55
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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If you're wondering why QF do it, it's in our FAM. You should hear it when we give it to LAX or DFW and you hear the pause and ".........ah ok thanks...". Not another soul out there doing it. Depends who you're flying with of course...

The good news: it's getting removed next edition (apparently).
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 10:23
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Originally Posted by Bula View Post
4.1.6 The pilot in command of an aircraft, receiving an instruction from ATC to change level, must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which level flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent;
and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report.


there’s an AND... clear as mud
Keep reporting leaving flight levels in Europe in which some airspaces you just need to say you call sign ( Shannon as example) and you'll be laughed at or someone will tell you there's no need for that.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 10:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE].If you're wondering why QF do it, it's in our FAM. You should hear it when we give it to LAX or DFW and you hear the pause and ".........ah ok thanks...". Not another soul out there doing it. Depends who you're flying with of course...

The good news: it's getting removed next edition (apparently). /QUOTE]


Really?
FSO OPS 135/19, dated 14/11/19.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 10:31
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ConfigFull View Post
If you're wondering why QF do it, it's in our FAM. You should hear it when we give it to LAX or DFW and you hear the pause and ".........ah ok thanks...". Not another soul out there doing it. Depends who you're flying with of course...

The good news: it's getting removed next edition (apparently).
FSO fixes that.

Plenty of US carriers also report leaving - hear it all day long between LAX and JFK...
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 13:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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According to AIM 5-3-3 pilots “should” followed by “at all times” para a “when vacating any previously assigned altitude “.

I make the leaving call everytime here in the US however most pilots dont and most controllers appear surpised by the call.



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Old 14th Feb 2020, 17:23
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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As oicur says it’s in the FAA AIM -

5–3–3 Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.

(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.

(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)

(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.

(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.

(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 18:36
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WhatShortage View Post
Keep reporting leaving flight levels in Europe in which some airspaces you just need to say you call sign ( Shannon as example) and you'll be laughed at or someone will tell you there's no need for that.
If cleared to "descend FL xxx when ready" I consider it good practice to report actually leaving the current level, even more so if a frequency change is in between. This might be less of an issue in these days of ADS-B when the controller sees your selected FL anyway, but it still can't hurt to close the loop and let him know that the descent he cleared is actually starting. If it's busy then any on-the-air discussion of what is superfluous and what not is not going to ease frequency congestion...I can't remember hearing anyone being told off on the air for superfluous radio transmissions in over 30 years of flying, but then I haven't been to Shannon.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 20:19
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Think old ATC Mate needs to get real and spend a few weeks in LGW or LHR
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 22:13
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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So is there actually any reason for having to call leaving other than ' because that is what the book has always said'?
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 23:33
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Ridiculous and a waste of airtime unless given a "descend when ready". Under radar control, if I've acknowledged a clearance, then I'll say if I'm NOT doing it.
Is it really necessary to make aviation so flipping complicated? The important stuff is hard enough.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 23:40
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I have flown with many FO's over the past 18 months who have told me the 'leaving' call is no longer required. I was visiting the ATC center in Melbourne recently and asked the Supervisor there and he said 'the old system would not notify us of an aircraft commencing descent which is why we required a 'leaving' call as per the AIP, the new system does notify us so we don't require a 'leaving' call as we will be notified electronically'. He then said that 'technically it is still in the AIP as there is a huge process to get it removed (underway) so it still should be reported but that most controllers don't care'. So the mentioned controller is technically right but to be honest is being a bit of a prick the way he is going about making his point.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 00:47
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kingRB View Post
let's be realistic here, they can't properly manage crossing times or speeds on STAR's as soon as more than 2 aircraft are arriving somewhere. Leaving the descent profile under the control of those flying the planes is probably going to offer a better outcome for everybody.
And herein lies the arrogance of this entire thread. The ATC was being arrogant in the OPs example if he does this all the time, however it could be a genuine statement, he may have just missed it.
​​​​​​
The OP was being arrogant by arguing. He is wrong. It is in AIP. Unfortunately whilst many many things in AIP are ignored, you have to be willing to fall on the sword when caught out.

KingRB has made an arrogant statement about sequencing when it's clear that he obviously hasn't spent any actual time trying to learn how sequencing in Australia works. Don't forget the system is from pre2000 - the ATCs work with what they have got. Not to mention a set of priorities and procedures which affect sequencing can make it too dynamic in Australia.

The point of my post is that this is meant to be a team effort. Without pilots there's no ATC, and without ATC your flight won't be safe. Can everyone just work together and not argue over these ridiculous minutae?

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Old 15th Feb 2020, 02:36
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
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The Australian AIP is SO poorly constructed and written.

References such as this are hard to find in the jumble and it is written in convoluted legalese with so much excessive and confusing verbage.

It needs to be ripped up and rewritten in practical, commonsense operator oriented language.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 03:46
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Best response so far!

Originally Posted by ramble on View Post
The Australian AIP is SO poorly constructed and written.

References such as this are hard to find in the jumble and it is written in convoluted legalese with so much excessive and confusing verbage.

It needs to be ripped up and rewritten in practical, commonsense operator oriented language.
That's about it, poorly written with contradictory statements in different sections.
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Old 15th Feb 2020, 06:30
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Quote: "It needs to be ripped up and rewritten in practical, commonsense operator oriented language."

Ramble, the whole Australian regulatory suite needs to be ripped up and rewritten, no chance of that because then they would have to admit they pissed away half a billion+ $ of taxpayer money. They are getting round the comprehension side of the reg's by writing another manual that explains the reg's in plain english, god knows what that will cost but begs the question, why didn't they write them in plain english in the first place?

Is it such a big deal? hard to get out of the habits of OZ, I still call leaving overseas, never been chipped once for doing so, can't imagine an ATCO chipping anyone for not doing it here, he see's you leaving on his scope. Maybe the ATCO that had a winge missed out the night before and was a tad frustrated.
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