Avoiding VFR into IMC accidents
Yes (we) do, and I would posit that VFR into IMC is not a big problem for most of us who are in that category.
Upon receiving a new certificate in FAA-land, the airman surrenders his previous one. Thus, when you pass your commercial check ride, you cease to be a private pilot forever more, even if you only maintain a 3rd class medical and never shoot another approach or submit to another IPC.
Upon receiving a new certificate in FAA-land, the airman surrenders his previous one. Thus, when you pass your commercial check ride, you cease to be a private pilot forever more, even if you only maintain a 3rd class medical and never shoot another approach or submit to another IPC.
That may be true, but so far as the stats you are quoting are concerned it means that the private pilot certificate holders who obtained their IFR rating before becoming commercial or ‘higher’ certificate holders are ‘lost’ to the stats once they get that ‘higher’ certificate.
Tell me where in the stats it shows how many commercial or ‘higher’ certificate holders obtained their IFR rating as private pilots before becoming a commercial certificate holder. Your previous assertion as to the numbers assumes that no pilot who moved from being a private certificate holder to a ‘higher’ certificate holder in the US obtained an IFR rating before doing so. That’s a rather brave assumption.
Tell me where in the stats it shows how many commercial or ‘higher’ certificate holders obtained their IFR rating as private pilots before becoming a commercial certificate holder. Your previous assertion as to the numbers assumes that no pilot who moved from being a private certificate holder to a ‘higher’ certificate holder in the US obtained an IFR rating before doing so. That’s a rather brave assumption.
I'm with Thornbird.
CASA's approach to IFR ratings costs lives.
Since GPS and the ability to "follow the magenta line" IFR ratings should be materially easier. There's no need for NDB, VOR or DME approaches. ILS is not really needed (we hardly have any that are accessible to GA). The theory should be a shadow of what IREX was. The only reason I can see for the gap between the proportion of pilots with instrument ratings in the US compared with Australia is bloody minded bureaucracy. And we should call out that it costs lives.
CASA's approach to IFR ratings costs lives.
Since GPS and the ability to "follow the magenta line" IFR ratings should be materially easier. There's no need for NDB, VOR or DME approaches. ILS is not really needed (we hardly have any that are accessible to GA). The theory should be a shadow of what IREX was. The only reason I can see for the gap between the proportion of pilots with instrument ratings in the US compared with Australia is bloody minded bureaucracy. And we should call out that it costs lives.
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All very good talking about IMC training for new pilots but unless you're going to have some sort of recurrent training mandated, it will all be for nought. Many of these accidents involve pilots who have had their licences for years. As you know, unless you regularly fly IMC, or have been doing it so long it's become second nature, you need regular refreshers.
That may be true, but so far as the stats you are quoting are concerned it means that the private pilot certificate holders who obtained their IFR rating before becoming commercial or ‘higher’ certificate holders are ‘lost’ to the stats once they get that ‘higher’ certificate.
Tell me where in the stats it shows how many commercial or ‘higher’ certificate holders obtained their IFR rating as private pilots before becoming a commercial certificate holder. Your previous assertion as to the numbers assumes that no pilot who moved from being a private certificate holder to a ‘higher’ certificate holder in the US obtained an IFR rating before doing so. That’s a rather brave assumption.
Tell me where in the stats it shows how many commercial or ‘higher’ certificate holders obtained their IFR rating as private pilots before becoming a commercial certificate holder. Your previous assertion as to the numbers assumes that no pilot who moved from being a private certificate holder to a ‘higher’ certificate holder in the US obtained an IFR rating before doing so. That’s a rather brave assumption.
An instrument rating, in the US, is not a certificate, per se. If, as is the case with me, one held a PPL with an instrument rating before receiving a commercial certificate, the instrument rating “follows” one to any subsequent certificate.
There are, in fact, quite a few commercial certificate holders who do not hold an instrument rating (mostly Ag pilots), so I think that the denominator would hold true for them as well when it comes to NIR into IMC crashes.
What I am getting at, is that really, a minority of private pilots (nowhere near the 68% you posit) have an instrument rating.
Your argument reinforces my point.
I got the 68% figure from Table 11.
You said, in effect, that the 68% figure isn’t a reliable indicator of how many private certificate holder have IFR ratings because the 68% covers a whole bunch of commercial certificate holders as well. I said that a whole bunch of those commercial certificate holders may have obtained IFR ratings before they obtained their commercial certificates.
Now you’re saying that a bunch of commercial certificate holders don’t hold IFR ratings. If that is correct, it would inexorably follow that the 68% covers a correspondingly greater number of private certificate holders.
Until that 68% figure is ‘sliced and diced’ in a way that can identify the ‘certificate history’ of the holders of IFR ratings, I do not think it’s reasonable to use phrases like “the vast majority” of private pilots don’t have instrument ratings (although I note that you’ve moderated your language to a “minority” do).
I got the 68% figure from Table 11.
You said, in effect, that the 68% figure isn’t a reliable indicator of how many private certificate holder have IFR ratings because the 68% covers a whole bunch of commercial certificate holders as well. I said that a whole bunch of those commercial certificate holders may have obtained IFR ratings before they obtained their commercial certificates.
Now you’re saying that a bunch of commercial certificate holders don’t hold IFR ratings. If that is correct, it would inexorably follow that the 68% covers a correspondingly greater number of private certificate holders.
Until that 68% figure is ‘sliced and diced’ in a way that can identify the ‘certificate history’ of the holders of IFR ratings, I do not think it’s reasonable to use phrases like “the vast majority” of private pilots don’t have instrument ratings (although I note that you’ve moderated your language to a “minority” do).
I’m sorry, but I have no more time for this inanity. You are wrong, as you well know.
The vast majority of PPLs don’t have instrument rratings, and essentially no CPLs die as the result of the transgressions in question.
Enjoy your weather down there.
I just flew my first trip today (IMC from 10 min after takeoff until 20 mi before landing) in the last 16 that didn’t end ind in an instrument approach.
no drama, nobody died, I am a current, instrument-rated pilot, and just happen to currently posses a third class medical, so I can only exercise private privledges.
The vast majority of PPLs don’t have instrument rratings, and essentially no CPLs die as the result of the transgressions in question.
Enjoy your weather down there.
I just flew my first trip today (IMC from 10 min after takeoff until 20 mi before landing) in the last 16 that didn’t end ind in an instrument approach.
no drama, nobody died, I am a current, instrument-rated pilot, and just happen to currently posses a third class medical, so I can only exercise private privledges.
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Back in the 1960's I wrote to the then Department, and suggested that at the completion of the Private Pilot Licence flight test the applicant be placed under the hood and be required to make a 180 degree turn without losing altitude. After entering the probable spiral dive the hood could be removed when the examiner considered control had been lost and any continuation would result in an accident. The examiner could reinforce the lesson to be learned after the flight and the new Private Pilot would have seen first hand the results of flight into IMC.
This suggestion was obviously not considered to be very helpful as I never heard of it being implemented and I never had a response from the Department.
I agree a simpler and cheaper IFR rating would help.
This suggestion was obviously not considered to be very helpful as I never heard of it being implemented and I never had a response from the Department.
I agree a simpler and cheaper IFR rating would help.
As a CIRSEA holder since 1987 I dropped back to PIFR in 2010 and have done biennial renewals/reviews at SHT on the MNG VOR and SHT NDB with the flight school and biennial cost was under $500
Providing you practice your recency faithfully there is no issue in staying current.
As for VFR into IFR imo its the guys who tell you IFR is crap who are the ones who always push the elements.
And they always make a point they think we ifr guys are arrogant idiots always pushing them out if the way.
Wierd attitude.
Getting to IFR from VFR in view of a recent local quote I got fir a bfr review of $1000 is probably going to die a death like the hapless souls who fly controlled into high terrain probably on their gos dead in track.
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I’m sorry, but I have no more time for this inanity. You are wrong, as you well know.
The vast majority of PPLs don’t have instrument rratings, and essentially no CPLs die as the result of the transgressions in question.
Enjoy your weather down there.
I just flew my first trip today (IMC from 10 min after takeoff until 20 mi before landing) in the last 16 that didn’t end ind in an instrument approach.
no drama, nobody died, I am a current, instrument-rated pilot, and just happen to currently posses a third class medical, so I can only exercise private privledges.
The vast majority of PPLs don’t have instrument rratings, and essentially no CPLs die as the result of the transgressions in question.
Enjoy your weather down there.
I just flew my first trip today (IMC from 10 min after takeoff until 20 mi before landing) in the last 16 that didn’t end ind in an instrument approach.
no drama, nobody died, I am a current, instrument-rated pilot, and just happen to currently posses a third class medical, so I can only exercise private privledges.
What a foolish admission to make on social media!
Officer I have a porsche and I drive it at 100 in a 65
Do your passengers kniw you are flying illegally
.
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When I was earning my instrument rating and after I had become pretty cocky on my ability to fly the gauges, my instructor took me up into a layer of thick stratus. I'm hooded, climbing out and before we hit the clouds, my instructor said to take the hood off and look around. I did. Nice view. Then suddenly we're in a bowl of cotton candy. Old crappy trainer, the air vents start leaking water. My heart rate went up times two. I'll never forget that day and how true IMC felt the first time.
This October past I earned my CFI. It's not in the syllabus, but I would love to give my students a flight into real IMC. Of course they wouldn't pay for it.
This October past I earned my CFI. It's not in the syllabus, but I would love to give my students a flight into real IMC. Of course they wouldn't pay for it.
I guess Sth Cal is sunny all the time, but what about the highbterrain to the east?
no clouds?
Where I live in sw vic back in 1987 trying to get out vfr was a mugs game.
Did the I follow railway lines crap and then upgraded with casa to class 1 stayed that way until 2010 for 5000 hours in single engined cessnas.
Then went to our new pifr which was the ONLY concession afforded to ifr guys in three decades.
And now its a two year review and you have to ge honest with yourself in both recency and currency, though I now see under new licencing the pifr has been tightened up.
Its now 2020 have done about 30 ifr flight tests and would not swap with vfr guys for a million bucks.
IMO its always the vfr guys protesting the degree of difficulty in upgrading not the IFR guys maintaining their profficiency.
And now with flight radar everyone knows how well ifr guys are at track keeping and maintaining tolerances lol!
I was just pointing out (well, kvetching really) that even one operating only as a private pilot can be very current (about 300 hrs a year for the past 5) and very competent in the clag (as above).
Weather here sucks, lots of ice and clouds. Even the ducks would rather be in Florida...
be nice...
Last edited by 421dog; 24th Jan 2020 at 06:27.
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Guys, you really say that there are PPL pilots out there who can not fly rate one turn under hood just with instruments? I understand they can not fly departures, arrivals, approaches and all that serious IFR things but simple turn?
I am sure most could do it under the hood. They would have demonstrated that umpteen years earlier when getting their licence.
Problem is when it happens for real some time down the track and they do a rate one turn and find themselves still in the clag and in real life with no one to help. And they are at low level because they have tried to get under deteriorating conditions that looked sort of OK until a few minutes ago. And now do not know where they are in relation to the terrain. And seeing little bits of ground appearing when they do not expect it and it appears to be at an angle they do not expect while turning they get the leans. And having only ever done instrument flying under the hood, not for real, always with an instructor next to them and even then rarely and under no real pressure, they start to panic and turn to wherever they thought was better but it doesn't get better.
I still think the idea that exiting IMC by a simple 180 turn is probably not actually an option available when this situation claims VFR pilots. By the time they are onto instruments they have already dug themselves way past that. The situations that are resolved by a 180 turn I suspect never make the accident reports.
Problem is when it happens for real some time down the track and they do a rate one turn and find themselves still in the clag and in real life with no one to help. And they are at low level because they have tried to get under deteriorating conditions that looked sort of OK until a few minutes ago. And now do not know where they are in relation to the terrain. And seeing little bits of ground appearing when they do not expect it and it appears to be at an angle they do not expect while turning they get the leans. And having only ever done instrument flying under the hood, not for real, always with an instructor next to them and even then rarely and under no real pressure, they start to panic and turn to wherever they thought was better but it doesn't get better.
I still think the idea that exiting IMC by a simple 180 turn is probably not actually an option available when this situation claims VFR pilots. By the time they are onto instruments they have already dug themselves way past that. The situations that are resolved by a 180 turn I suspect never make the accident reports.
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A very stressed VFR pilot who has just entered IMC needs to get their act together quickly. Maybe turn away from rising terrain, if possible without entering a spiral dive, and set the aircraft up in a climb (500 fpm) on a fixed heading whilst you calm down.
Sure you may still hit solid clouds or encounter icing conditions but at least you are in control of the aircraft. I am just stating what worked for me many years ago. 15 minutes later I popped into bright sunshine at 8500’.
Sure you may still hit solid clouds or encounter icing conditions but at least you are in control of the aircraft. I am just stating what worked for me many years ago. 15 minutes later I popped into bright sunshine at 8500’.
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The myth: one second it's VFR next second it's IMC. Upon entering none VMC you go on the dials, exicute a basic 180deg turn back in to clear sky.
Reality: It's turbulent, you've been getting further and further beyond yr limits visually and getting lower and lower to stay visual, at times not far above the ground, the rain is now a factor, you are sweating getting very tense with viz slowing deteriorating to conditions you've never experienced before. You have family onboard the wife is firing off questions beyond what you can answer with any certainty. The kids are starting to get upset due turbulence and the rain now pelting the aluminium can you are all in. You know you have really stuffed up and attempt to squint further into the muck, it doesn't feel right, noises are getting louder, the dials are all over the place, yr GPS ground speed has increased a lot, you are shaking, the wife is now screaming louder than the wind noise, the G forces are nasty & combined with the bad turbulence you are totally confused, you emerge from the bottom of the cloud and instantly see the ground at a 90+ deg angle, you pull back hard but the trees rush up rapidly.......lights out!!
YOU are the ultimate protection!
Reality: It's turbulent, you've been getting further and further beyond yr limits visually and getting lower and lower to stay visual, at times not far above the ground, the rain is now a factor, you are sweating getting very tense with viz slowing deteriorating to conditions you've never experienced before. You have family onboard the wife is firing off questions beyond what you can answer with any certainty. The kids are starting to get upset due turbulence and the rain now pelting the aluminium can you are all in. You know you have really stuffed up and attempt to squint further into the muck, it doesn't feel right, noises are getting louder, the dials are all over the place, yr GPS ground speed has increased a lot, you are shaking, the wife is now screaming louder than the wind noise, the G forces are nasty & combined with the bad turbulence you are totally confused, you emerge from the bottom of the cloud and instantly see the ground at a 90+ deg angle, you pull back hard but the trees rush up rapidly.......lights out!!
YOU are the ultimate protection!
and also a full hour of unusual attitude recovery. I was also flown into a cloud to try it out for real.
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I did not mean that 180 turn will save you. I though the problem was that they can not even fly basic things without looking out of the window. Sure you just can't turn back. When you realise what is going on it is too late.
But even the idea to push close to ground so you can see is really bad. I understand that VFR pilot wants to see but they should know. Just keep it straight, maybe turn back and call for help if you can't navigate yourself out of it.
We had accident like that few years ago. She got into VMC (PPL, maybe 70-80 hours total), called ATC for help and ended up in a hill. She was so scared and lost that I could not finish whole communication recording.
But even the idea to push close to ground so you can see is really bad. I understand that VFR pilot wants to see but they should know. Just keep it straight, maybe turn back and call for help if you can't navigate yourself out of it.
We had accident like that few years ago. She got into VMC (PPL, maybe 70-80 hours total), called ATC for help and ended up in a hill. She was so scared and lost that I could not finish whole communication recording.
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Its not that simple!
U turn to safety is fine in theory
other factors such as turbulence emotional adrenelin kick in
and the way back thru the sucker hole may have closed off
I remember in more recent tests drifting off into uncommanded turns will fiddling with the comms panel
scanning takes practice practice practice
and now it is mandatory to demonstrate low and slow down low
for obvious reasons
IFR is a skill that you quickly lose if you dont regularly practice or exercise in flight
its why recency is a legal requirement in all classes of IFR
and a highly reccomended activity if we arecall being honest with ourselves
By the way after all that is said here
i profess to have chickened out of IFR flying after seeing errors develope in my flying that all the training in the world did not correct all there to see on flight radar
everyone stalks flight radar now as you saw with the crash of the c130
it was on tv within the hour
altitude heading speed and rate of descent
take a look at your last flight type in tail number its all there to see especially the crashes
Angel Flight vfr into imc Mt Gambier for one
Angel Flight near Warracknabeal results shown to us in a CASA safety seminar was sobering evience to see
nothing excuses that sort of pilot behavior
nothing
A very stressed VFR pilot who has just entered IMC needs to get their act together quickly. Maybe turn away from rising terrain, if possible without entering a spiral dive, and set the aircraft up in a climb (500 fpm) on a fixed heading whilst you calm down.
Sure you may still hit solid clouds or encounter icing conditions but at least you are in control of the aircraft. I am just stating what worked for me many years ago. 15 minutes later I popped into bright sunshine at 8500’.
Sure you may still hit solid clouds or encounter icing conditions but at least you are in control of the aircraft. I am just stating what worked for me many years ago. 15 minutes later I popped into bright sunshine at 8500’.
Years ago I needed to always get there. Nowadays, I don’t.
The most dangerous thing on my aircraft..... is a schedule.