Bushfires.
Thread Starter
In an effort to help people understand what is happening and how to help, let me explain something. Just like an army fighting a war, the key is logistics. The logistics determine what is possible and when it can be delivered, many commentators and the public don't understand this and get frustrated when things don't happen fast enough or their well meaning offers of help are rejected.
On my PC I have a copy of one shift plan for one major fire. It's 36 pages long. It details how the CFA is going to try to fight ONE fire for ONE twelve hour shift. It HAS to cover things like missions and priorities for individual five or six tanker strike teams, the composition of each team, where they will go, where they can get fuel and water, where they can get medical help, who is going to relieve them, who and where will mechanical support (mechanics, tyres,etc.) be provided, then there is a radio communications plan, the plan for refugees, and all THAT is for each of perhaps five strike teams. Then on top of that there is the air wing plan, the bulldozer, grader and heavy equipment plan, the refugee plan the communications plan both operational and to the public, then there is the fire fighter personnel plan - where are fire fighters going to be rested, fed and returned? Then there is the fuel plan ,the water plan, etc. Then of course we have the Bureau of Meteorology and their highly specialised forecasts and the fire behaviour specialists and mappers who try and predict what will happen. Then there are the police, electricity, roads and communications plans.
Now add interstate coordination, defence department coordination ( they have mostly separate logistics) and such things as legal requirements
Do you now understand how complex it is to deal with this emergency? Do you also understand that the recovery plan will need to be just as complicated and detailed?
Our team went in on New Years Eve. We were called at 0717 and assembled and rolling North at 0900. Thats how fast this fire developed. The base at Tallangatta football oval was just setting up when we arrived - this is remote country. At the fire ground there was no fuel, no power, no communications and very little water - at about 0200 on New Years Day approximately forty tankers rolled in, with their own fuel tankers and auxiliary staff and we stood down. We got on a bus home later New years morning. That's pretty fast work by anyone's standards. Our trucks are still up North, but we were provided a replacement one back at base from Western Victoria. Just the logistics of managing the vehicles is mind boggling.
This is a long and complex battle which isn't over. Do you now understand why except at the very local level, your help isn't perhaps useful because you aren't integrated into the logistics plan? We don't have fuel, food or radios for you. We don't know your training and experience levels. We don't know how safe you are or what you can and cannot do.
Of course there will be mistakes and SNAFUs they can't be avoided, but give the authorities some slack.
Lessons we learned - buy a three phase diesel generator for our station - the ones near Corryong were dark. Don't leave behind a brand new $2000+ set of Milwaukee power tools in the truck when you hand it over, we will be lucky if another poorer brigade doesn't 'borrow" them.
On my PC I have a copy of one shift plan for one major fire. It's 36 pages long. It details how the CFA is going to try to fight ONE fire for ONE twelve hour shift. It HAS to cover things like missions and priorities for individual five or six tanker strike teams, the composition of each team, where they will go, where they can get fuel and water, where they can get medical help, who is going to relieve them, who and where will mechanical support (mechanics, tyres,etc.) be provided, then there is a radio communications plan, the plan for refugees, and all THAT is for each of perhaps five strike teams. Then on top of that there is the air wing plan, the bulldozer, grader and heavy equipment plan, the refugee plan the communications plan both operational and to the public, then there is the fire fighter personnel plan - where are fire fighters going to be rested, fed and returned? Then there is the fuel plan ,the water plan, etc. Then of course we have the Bureau of Meteorology and their highly specialised forecasts and the fire behaviour specialists and mappers who try and predict what will happen. Then there are the police, electricity, roads and communications plans.
Now add interstate coordination, defence department coordination ( they have mostly separate logistics) and such things as legal requirements
Do you now understand how complex it is to deal with this emergency? Do you also understand that the recovery plan will need to be just as complicated and detailed?
Our team went in on New Years Eve. We were called at 0717 and assembled and rolling North at 0900. Thats how fast this fire developed. The base at Tallangatta football oval was just setting up when we arrived - this is remote country. At the fire ground there was no fuel, no power, no communications and very little water - at about 0200 on New Years Day approximately forty tankers rolled in, with their own fuel tankers and auxiliary staff and we stood down. We got on a bus home later New years morning. That's pretty fast work by anyone's standards. Our trucks are still up North, but we were provided a replacement one back at base from Western Victoria. Just the logistics of managing the vehicles is mind boggling.
This is a long and complex battle which isn't over. Do you now understand why except at the very local level, your help isn't perhaps useful because you aren't integrated into the logistics plan? We don't have fuel, food or radios for you. We don't know your training and experience levels. We don't know how safe you are or what you can and cannot do.
Of course there will be mistakes and SNAFUs they can't be avoided, but give the authorities some slack.
Lessons we learned - buy a three phase diesel generator for our station - the ones near Corryong were dark. Don't leave behind a brand new $2000+ set of Milwaukee power tools in the truck when you hand it over, we will be lucky if another poorer brigade doesn't 'borrow" them.
The RFS strongly recommends the Emergency+ app, a free app developed by Australia's emergency services and their Government and industry partners which can be installed on your phone. The app uses GPS functionality built into smart phones to help a Triple Zero (000) caller to provide critical location details required to mobilise emergency services.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial...hern_Australia
Aerial pre-emptive fire fighting many years ago. Prevention is better than the cure.
Aerial pre-emptive fire fighting many years ago. Prevention is better than the cure.
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They weren't far of 50C at Penrith on Saturday.
That’s a really great insight Sunfish - thanks for sharing that with us.
And thanks for your efforts in helping fight these fires (and to everyone else here volunteering their time).
And thanks for your efforts in helping fight these fires (and to everyone else here volunteering their time).
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No, three words: the fire triangle contains fuel, heat and oxygen...remove anyone of these and there is no fire.
We add water to fires to reduce the temperature and high water content in fuels inhibits combustion by keeping the fuel temperature down. FMC is desperately low this season due to ongoing drought, high temperatures (record-breaking everywhere) and strong winds so fuels are extremely volatile.
Fuel loads are high; no doubt about it. But it’s been bloody hard to do fuel reduction burns responsibly in conditions pertaining last few years. They need to be done late Autumn if possible because the winter rains reduces stress losses which just mean more fuel as trees and shrubs die as occurs often with Spring burns. We can’t do much about the oxygen (just look at all the uniformed commentary), but the world just might be able to do something about the temperatures if everyone turns their minds to it.
We add water to fires to reduce the temperature and high water content in fuels inhibits combustion by keeping the fuel temperature down. FMC is desperately low this season due to ongoing drought, high temperatures (record-breaking everywhere) and strong winds so fuels are extremely volatile.
Fuel loads are high; no doubt about it. But it’s been bloody hard to do fuel reduction burns responsibly in conditions pertaining last few years. They need to be done late Autumn if possible because the winter rains reduces stress losses which just mean more fuel as trees and shrubs die as occurs often with Spring burns. We can’t do much about the oxygen (just look at all the uniformed commentary), but the world just might be able to do something about the temperatures if everyone turns their minds to it.
i believe that the growing population is a major contributor to the rapidly changing climate. So perhaps if great grandaddy pulled something else out......
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Nice uplifting story and photo. Volunteers are fantastic.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...viral/11845060
Kurt Hickling has seen plenty of devastation and loss caused by Victoria's bushfires, but he believes his most enduring memory from the crisis is one of hope and positivity.
Mr Hickling, a professional photographer and experienced CFA volunteer, has completed countless marriage and newborn baby photo shoots over the years.
However, he said the job he completed on Sunday at Kiewa in north-west Victoria was the most special of his career.
His subjects were firefighter Beau Haines and his son Spencer, born on Christmas Eve.
Mr Hickling knew he was onto a winner the moment he snapped fast-asleep Spencer cradled in his proud father's arms at the Kiewa fire station.
The image has since gone viral on Facebook, attracting hundreds of shares, comments and well wishes.
"We just thought, let's send out a message from a volunteer's perspective about how important it is for them to get back to their families," Mr Hickling said of his picture.
"I wanted to create something positive for everyone to look at.
"It's given some people a lot of hope."
"It near on brought tears to my eyes."
For Mr Hickling, who is based in Chiltern, the fire crisis has meant juggling his photography work with CFA volunteer duties that have taken him around the state.
Wedding shoots have gone ahead despite the fires but precautions are taken, such as checking exit points in case fires get too close.
He said volunteers at his CFA brigade are worn-out, some completing 20-hour shifts.
"There's a lot of tired firefighters. Resources are being stretched to the limit," Mr Hickling said.
"Nobody feels defeated. They're exhausted but they're not going to give up the fight."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-...viral/11845060
Firefighter and newborn son photographed at Kiewa headquarters goes viral
Kurt Hickling has seen plenty of devastation and loss caused by Victoria's bushfires, but he believes his most enduring memory from the crisis is one of hope and positivity.Mr Hickling, a professional photographer and experienced CFA volunteer, has completed countless marriage and newborn baby photo shoots over the years.
However, he said the job he completed on Sunday at Kiewa in north-west Victoria was the most special of his career.
His subjects were firefighter Beau Haines and his son Spencer, born on Christmas Eve.
Mr Hickling knew he was onto a winner the moment he snapped fast-asleep Spencer cradled in his proud father's arms at the Kiewa fire station.
The image has since gone viral on Facebook, attracting hundreds of shares, comments and well wishes.
"We just thought, let's send out a message from a volunteer's perspective about how important it is for them to get back to their families," Mr Hickling said of his picture.
"I wanted to create something positive for everyone to look at.
"It's given some people a lot of hope."
Firefighters 'exhausted' but 'not giving up'
Mr Haines told ABC Radio Melbourne he was relieved to be able to attend his son's birth, after being deployed to battle blazes at Bateman's Bay and Corryong in the days prior."It near on brought tears to my eyes."
For Mr Hickling, who is based in Chiltern, the fire crisis has meant juggling his photography work with CFA volunteer duties that have taken him around the state.
Wedding shoots have gone ahead despite the fires but precautions are taken, such as checking exit points in case fires get too close.
He said volunteers at his CFA brigade are worn-out, some completing 20-hour shifts.
"There's a lot of tired firefighters. Resources are being stretched to the limit," Mr Hickling said.
"Nobody feels defeated. They're exhausted but they're not going to give up the fight."
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 7th Jan 2020 at 00:38. Reason: Add quote: this helps PPRuNers know what you're posting about!
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There would still a fair number of experienced ag pilots in Australia capable of doing fire bombing but lack the special tick of approval from NAFC. They require 100 hours on type, ie AT802 and 50 hours minimum of actual firebombing experience logged. Now here is the catch 22. You can't go firebombing to get that experience without NAFC approval, but you won't get approved unless you have the experience. Only in Oz.
Going by the RFS facebook feed there's one less helicopter working the south coast fires after this afternoon, thankfully pilot reported as safe.
Aircraft incident
At around 1600hrs this afternoon, a contract helicopter working for the NSW Rural Fire Service (NSW RFS) ditched into a dam on the Far South Coast of NSW.
The waterbombing aircraft, tasked to the Clyde Mountain fire, ditched into the Ben Boyd Reservoir in the Ben Boyd National Park at Edrom, in the Bega Valley Shire.
The aircraft remains submerged however the pilot was able to free himself from the aircraft and is safely onshore.
Ambulance are responding to the scene
At around 1600hrs this afternoon, a contract helicopter working for the NSW Rural Fire Service (NSW RFS) ditched into a dam on the Far South Coast of NSW.
The waterbombing aircraft, tasked to the Clyde Mountain fire, ditched into the Ben Boyd Reservoir in the Ben Boyd National Park at Edrom, in the Bega Valley Shire.
The aircraft remains submerged however the pilot was able to free himself from the aircraft and is safely onshore.
Ambulance are responding to the scene
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22/11/19 ABC -
"A staggering number of the unprecedented bushfires currently ravaging Australia seem to have been lit on purpose, with at least 74 people reportedly charged with arson"
11/01/20 ABC -
"The truth about Australia's fires - arsonists aren't responsible for many"
"A staggering number of the unprecedented bushfires currently ravaging Australia seem to have been lit on purpose, with at least 74 people reportedly charged with arson"
11/01/20 ABC -
"The truth about Australia's fires - arsonists aren't responsible for many"
currawong
thanks for that.
I don't think the headlines really reflect the content of either report (and that's a whole other area for discussion …)
The bottom line seems to be that 'non-natural' fires are of concern (there are too many of them) but, while some have catastrophic outcomes, they generally cause relatively little damage.
According to research reported on in the first (radio) report, the figure of 37% was mentioned as "accidentally or deliberately" lit but the damage is often limited. For example, from the 2nd report, "In Victoria, where about 1.2 million hectares has burned, only 385 hectares — or 0.03 per cent — have been attributed to suspicious circumstances."
Of the 'deliberate' fires, you can also need to look at the age / mental state of the fire starters. One of the reports suggested that of the deliberate fires, 60% are started by 'children' (people under the age of 21 !!??). Deliberately lit fires spike during school holidays with many of the children found to come from families with "issues" (alcoholism, drugs, abusive parents, etc)
And whether fires are natural or not, this is only addressing a small part what we need to be looking at:
* causes of the fires,
* methods to reduce intensity / damage (hazard reduction burning?),
* firefighting practices & resourcing,
* changing climate,
* increasing number of people at risk e.g. population growth, 'tree-changers', etc
thanks for that.
I don't think the headlines really reflect the content of either report (and that's a whole other area for discussion …)
The bottom line seems to be that 'non-natural' fires are of concern (there are too many of them) but, while some have catastrophic outcomes, they generally cause relatively little damage.
According to research reported on in the first (radio) report, the figure of 37% was mentioned as "accidentally or deliberately" lit but the damage is often limited. For example, from the 2nd report, "In Victoria, where about 1.2 million hectares has burned, only 385 hectares — or 0.03 per cent — have been attributed to suspicious circumstances."
Of the 'deliberate' fires, you can also need to look at the age / mental state of the fire starters. One of the reports suggested that of the deliberate fires, 60% are started by 'children' (people under the age of 21 !!??). Deliberately lit fires spike during school holidays with many of the children found to come from families with "issues" (alcoholism, drugs, abusive parents, etc)
And whether fires are natural or not, this is only addressing a small part what we need to be looking at:
* causes of the fires,
* methods to reduce intensity / damage (hazard reduction burning?),
* firefighting practices & resourcing,
* changing climate,
* increasing number of people at risk e.g. population growth, 'tree-changers', etc
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And whether fires are natural or not, this is only addressing a small part what we need to be looking at:
* causes of the fires,
* methods to reduce intensity / damage (hazard reduction burning?),
* firefighting practices & resourcing,
* changing climate,
* increasing number of people at risk e.g. population growth, 'tree-changers', etc
* causes of the fires,
* methods to reduce intensity / damage (hazard reduction burning?),
* firefighting practices & resourcing,
* changing climate,
* increasing number of people at risk e.g. population growth, 'tree-changers', etc
Last edited by Super Cecil; 12th Jan 2020 at 07:37.
