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Minimum Licence to fly a 11,000 kg aircraft PVT Ops

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Minimum Licence to fly a 11,000 kg aircraft PVT Ops

Old 8th Dec 2019, 09:33
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Minimum Licence to fly a 11,000 kg aircraft PVT Ops

Arguing with a friend about the requirements to fly an 11,000 kg aircraft, such as a DC-3 in a private operation.

PPL with ME class rating

DC-3 type rating

Mult-crew endorsement

Class 2 medical.

Correct?
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Old 8th Dec 2019, 09:49
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Sounds about right, for a private operation. And IFR might be helpful. But as soon as other people's money is involved, you'll need a ATPL to be in command of a multi-crew!
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Old 8th Dec 2019, 10:01
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Who’d know these days. Probably depends on what Part 61 says and what you’re going to do with the aircraft. There is no pax limit on private operations. (Please: nobody quote CAR 1988 2(7A) at me as a ‘rule’.)
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Old 8th Dec 2019, 10:22
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Would you really need a Multi-Crew endorsement?
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Old 8th Dec 2019, 14:58
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pretty much on the mark, see below for corrections.
Originally Posted by Guptar View Post
Arguing with a friend about the requirements to fly an 11,000 kg aircraft, such as a DC-3 in a private operation.

PPL with ME class rating (MEA Class Rating not required, the MEA competencies are incorporated in the Type Rating. The MEA Class rating only needed to fly an aeroplane falling under the class, ie one not requiring a Type Rating)

DC-3 type rating

Mult-crew endorsement (Multi-Crew Co-operation Course)

Class 2 medical.

Correct?
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 01:22
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Not sure which seat youíd like to fly her in - having flown a DC-3 in private ops, I still wasnít allowed to fly in command because I didnít have an ATPL, I was only allowed to fly her as an F/O - even in private. Granted this was 10 years ago but I donít think that would have changed?
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 01:25
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Not sure which seat youíd like to fly her in - having flown a DC-3 in private ops, I still wasnít allowed to fly in command because I didnít have an ATPL, I was only allowed to fly her as an F/O - even in private. Granted this was 10 years ago but I donít think that would have changed?
Was that a company or insurance requirement?

Or..........Australia making up the rules, or ignoring them?
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 01:58
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Holder of PPL can fly any aircraft of any weight in Private Operations, provided a type rating is held and IFR rating if required.

Skyway's you were cheated if that was a CASA requirement. Insurance company might up the ante Ö

Enjoy!
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 02:14
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Ballony...what about 2 7 D..? Oh right ...thats about a 'commercial' purpose. Like taking a photo. For money !
SFA to do with 'safety' of course
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 02:15
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ps..and I would really love to hava go at a DC3.
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 04:05
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61.505 Privileges of private pilot licences
Subject to Subpart 61.E and regulation 61.510, the holder of a private pilot licence is authorised to pilot an aircraft as pilot in command or co‑pilot if:
(a) the aircraft is engaged in a private operation; or
(b) the holder is receiving flight training.

61.510 Limitations on exercise of privileges of private pilot licences—multi‑crew operations (1) On and after 1 September 2015, the holder of a private pilot licence is authorised to exercise the privileges of the licence in a multi‑crew operation (my bold) only if the holder has completed an approved course of training in multi‑crew cooperation. When is an operation a multi-crew operation?
- when required by the type certificate; or
- when required by legislation

Subpart 61.E requires, amongst other things, the pilot to hold appropriate Type Ratings as required as well as pilot ratings for the activity (eg: Night and IFR)
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 04:19
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Interesting to note the following from the American EAA Forums (November 2011):

"The piston DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certification. HOWEVER if your DC-3 has been modified to the 1830-94 or the 1820-76 and any Higher horsepower engine that includes a geared rudder tab, you will have an FAA approved flight manual that mandates it a 2 pilot aircraft."

The FAA Flight Manual mentioned above is actually written by an American Insurance Company back in the 1950's and that is the manual that we have to work to in Australia even though there are numbered pages missing from that manual!
The DC3 appears in some recent CASA documentation also as a Single Pilot aircraft, if by chance I am reading the legislation correctly!. .
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 06:31
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Ok pedant mode on...The original question was the minimum licence necessary to fly an aircraft like a DC-3. Technically you can do it with no licence as long as there is an appropriately rated instructor sitting next to you and you are receiving instruction.....
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Old 9th Dec 2019, 08:40
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Ha! Well done, no one. (Thumbs up thingy)
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Old 3rd Dec 2021, 10:59
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2 years later and it's still clear as mud. From the CASA web page.

Class 1 medical certificate

You need a Class 1 medical certificate for these licences:
  • Air Transport Pilot Licence
  • Commercial Pilot Licence (other than balloons)
  • Multi-crew Pilot (aeroplane) Licence
  • Flight Engineer Licence
  • Student Flight Engineer Licence.
So for a Cessna Citation 500 which i s a 2 pilot aeroplane (5400 kg aprox) you need a Multi-crew pilot licence. According to the CASA infor to hold a multi-crew pilot licence you need a Class 1 medical.

What if you have a Citaion 1SP which is a modification. As long as certain equipment is servicable you can fly it single pilot on a class 2 medical. if that equipmet is US it reverts back to its original certification requirements as a 2 pilot aeroplane (MCP licence Class 1 medical now required).

Additionaly CAS no longer mentions anything abut exercising the privilages in a commercial operation. So it seems now there is no difference betwee commercial and private ops.

or...have I got it all backwards?
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Old 3rd Dec 2021, 23:17
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.
Cessna C501/SP is not a modification. It is a Part 23 certified aircraft, factory certified and approved for Single Pilot Ops in private and Charter
Cessna C551/SP ditto above.
.

Last edited by Office Update; 3rd Dec 2021 at 23:39.
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Old 4th Dec 2021, 02:45
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  • Multi-crew Pilot (aeroplane) Licence
So for a Cessna Citation 500 which i s a 2 pilot aeroplane (5400 kg aprox) you need a Multi-crew pilot licence. According to the CASA infor to hold a multi-crew pilot licence you need a Class 1 medical.
Not an expert here, but I believe that is referring to the MPL, rather than a multi-crew aircraft. As I recall the MPL was going to be used as a solution to the long-talked-about pilot shortage, and involved students completing an approved course which involved a considerable amount of simulator time and then going straight into the right seat of an airliner.

As I see it a PPL can obtain a type rating on any aircraft that his/her wallet can stand, and then fly it as PIC. Didn't John Travolta obtain a B744 type rating through Qantas?
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Old 4th Dec 2021, 04:30
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Guptar,
The board is full of these arguments over the last few years.
You can fly anything you like on a PPL providing you are either endorsed or have a type rating. Providing the operation is 'private'
Chimbu is correct; the reg refers to the MPL.
Read Office Update above; he knows the Citation certification verbatim.
I know people who fly the DC3 as a single pilot aircraft, privately in parachute Ops abroad. I will stand corrected but I was certain our nearby neighbours flew DC-3's in Ag Ops as a S/P; but not sure.
It is all to do with certification for S/P Ops. ALL Beechcraft prop driven aircraft can be flown S/P providing the S/P equipment is installed. Two crew might be required for RPT or Public Transport and that's understandable.
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Old 4th Dec 2021, 21:47
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Originally Posted by Kagamuga View Post
Guptar,
You can fly anything you like on a PPL providing you are either endorsed or have a type rating. Providing the operation is 'private'
...
I know people who fly the DC3 as a single pilot aircraft, privately in parachute Ops abroad. I will stand corrected but I was certain our nearby neighbours flew DC-3's in Ag Ops as a S/P; but not sure.
In case it's helpful; I was rated in a C-47/DC3 on a PPL. We typically flew it multi-crew and I'd attended the appropriate ground school, at the time of my rating it was private ops. Not much later obtained a CPL at which time the licence was updated and the CAA entered said DC3 onto paper - so I guess the initial rating must have been ok ;-) Later obtain an AOC and the rest is history.

Also, to confirm that DC3's were operated single pilot on Ag operations, although I don't believe the 'Ag' was a pre-req to being single pilot? Sadly there were mishaps, with at least one catastrophic wing failure, they're wonderful aircraft but tooling them around like a fighter with large loads and under high-g conditions is hard yakker for old machines primarily designed as airliners

FP.
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Old 5th Dec 2021, 11:19
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Kagamuga - thanks for the clarification. 61.510 is the reg of interest. I thought CASA might have been refering to the MPl rather than multi-pilot aircraft but couldn't find evidence to support that.
Is multi-crew co-operation done as part of a type rating that's included with an aircraft purchase, or is it a stand alone component.
I think a Gulfstream G600 would be just the ticket after a lotto win. I asked a friend what he would do if he won $100 million. "I'd spend half the money on aircraft and cars and the other half I would waste". A man who has his priorities right.
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