Mooney accident pilot refused a clearance at 6,500'
No; I'm suggesting that if the weather prevents doing that you declare a pan and make the controllers work for you. That's how it works when you're in danger.
There is always scope to talk about airspace change. This is a perfect forum for that. Make a thread about it and stop hijacking accident threads to push your agenda.
There is always scope to talk about airspace change. This is a perfect forum for that. Make a thread about it and stop hijacking accident threads to push your agenda.
Sadly there are many relatively low time pilots prepared to risk encounters with terrain or weather rather than incur the wrath of CASA or ATC, this has been the case for far too long and needs to stop.
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It's often difficult to figure out what is possible and what isn't as a pilot. The Sydney controllers seem to be able to handle VFR traffic on the Harbour Scenic when the airspace appears to be completely saturated, absolute kudos to them. Then Williamtown can't give you a transit when it seems like nothing is moving in their airspace...
I thought we had it rough in the UK with being denied the occasional transit, but here in Australia I have experienced numerous delays and denials at tin pot airfields.
I thought we had it rough in the UK with being denied the occasional transit, but here in Australia I have experienced numerous delays and denials at tin pot airfields.
At post #186 in the "Bell ditching off Newcastle" thread Maggie Island said:
Says it all, really.
Don't you worry, the [Willytown] Romeo's are activated with or without justification! (Mine or otherwise)
I was under the impression that air traffic controllers could suppress signals from planes squawking 1200 to avoid clutter on their screen.
As a private pilot, I have had my transmission swamped by another plane transmitting on the same frequency at the same time. I'm told commercial planes have stronger transmitters.
Yes, I have been refused clearance through controlled airspace. I have no problem with this.
If it is an emergency, say so, or act accordingly regardless of permission.
If you look to the left, I was taught, "See and avoid."
Not the sort of comment that would indicate an emergency...
As a private pilot, I have had my transmission swamped by another plane transmitting on the same frequency at the same time. I'm told commercial planes have stronger transmitters.
Yes, I have been refused clearance through controlled airspace. I have no problem with this.
If it is an emergency, say so, or act accordingly regardless of permission.
If you look to the left, I was taught, "See and avoid."
the pilot reported that he was operating in clear conditions,
Were the controllers working this aircraft pilots?
I doubt it. Had they ever experienced this scenario?
Could they appreciate what the outcome could be?
Did they help the pilot?
You were the boss some time ago so why blame others now Dick?
Bob Hawke gave you the job as Chairman of CASA.
What did you do to reign in regulation in your days back in the ‘90’s?
It appears the old days of a great welcoming Australian flying community has long gone.
The likes of GOANNA and other outback tours are long gone.
I still have my fixed and rotary wing Aussie licences from decades ago but you regulators are the big issue when it comes to
winter in Australia.
The days of self fly hire for European and American pilots are long gone.
Bob Hawke gave you the job as Chairman of CASA.
What did you do to reign in regulation in your days back in the ‘90’s?
It appears the old days of a great welcoming Australian flying community has long gone.
The likes of GOANNA and other outback tours are long gone.
I still have my fixed and rotary wing Aussie licences from decades ago but you regulators are the big issue when it comes to
winter in Australia.
The days of self fly hire for European and American pilots are long gone.
Be hundreds every day, the banner towing advertising, and all the helicopters going to downtown Manhattan, East 34th, West 30th, traffic into TEB, N07, MMU, CDW, LDJ
Controllers are not mind readers, I have been denied weather deviations and even being accepted to my diversion airport for ATC procedural issues, simply declared PAN and I got what I needed. If ATC says unavailable, declare a PAN then it becomes available, if the danger level increases declare MAYDAY.
Pilots should use the use the system correctly, if enough people declare a PAN the ATSB will require a change.
No requirement for controllers to be pilots unlike some other countries that require controllers to be at least PPL holders.
Pilots should use the use the system correctly, if enough people declare a PAN the ATSB will require a change.
No requirement for controllers to be pilots unlike some other countries that require controllers to be at least PPL holders.
Deja Vu:
If the penalty for incurring the wrath of CASA or ATC was the equivalent of a speeding fine, no one would give it a second thought.
However the penalty is potentially the acquisition of a criminal record, becoming a felon, no reputation, no house, no family, no super, no flying, no firearms, no employment, no air travel and no overseas travel.
Like most rational adults, I regard CASA and ATC as more capricious and vindictive than weather and terrain and in the unlikely event I was caught out I suggest it’s not a simple choice to bust controlled airspace at all, despite what you may think.
So, sadly, it isn’t going to stop until the law and unjust culture changes.
Sadly there are many relatively low time pilots prepared to risk encounters with terrain or weather rather than incur the wrath of CASA or ATC, this has been the case for far too long and needs to stop.
However the penalty is potentially the acquisition of a criminal record, becoming a felon, no reputation, no house, no family, no super, no flying, no firearms, no employment, no air travel and no overseas travel.
Like most rational adults, I regard CASA and ATC as more capricious and vindictive than weather and terrain and in the unlikely event I was caught out I suggest it’s not a simple choice to bust controlled airspace at all, despite what you may think.
So, sadly, it isn’t going to stop until the law and unjust culture changes.
While I cant speak of this incident as I dont know any more than the ATSB report - I have had several situation in GA where a clearance was required and ATC weren't keen... until i told them what was happening. A phrase as simple as "due weather, request clearance direct ..." was enough to get a clearance organised - not necissarilly immediately (due IFR traffic or similar) however actually talking to the controller and telling them what you need can make all the difference. Now that I work in an IFR RPT capacity, i do not know a single pilot that I work with that wouldn't mind burning an extra 5-10 minutes of fuel to allow a VFR aircraft through/infront in marginal weather if we're in the way. We can fly through it... they can't.
In some situations, even the old "we have this issue, we are doing this" was enough to make things happen, the paperwork can be dealt with later - and if you have a good enough reason to do your own thing to stay safe... then you're good.
In some situations, even the old "we have this issue, we are doing this" was enough to make things happen, the paperwork can be dealt with later - and if you have a good enough reason to do your own thing to stay safe... then you're good.
Sunfish if you can find me a genuine example of someone who was REQUIRED to breach airspace due to weather or an emergency, who articulated that was the case and was subsequently punished in the way you've described, I'll never question you again.
Good luck.
Good luck.
ATC as more capricious and vindictive than weather and terrain and in the unlikely event I was caught out I suggest it’s not a simple choice to bust controlled airspace at all, despite what you may think.
So, sadly, it isn’t going to stop until the law and unjust culture changes.
So, sadly, it isn’t going to stop until the law and unjust culture changes.
A phrase as simple as "due weather, request clearance direct ..." was enough to get a clearance organised - not necissarilly immediately (due IFR traffic or similar) however actually talking to the controller and telling them what you need can make all the difference. [snip]
In some situations, even the old "we have this issue, we are doing this" was enough to make things happen, the paperwork can be dealt with later - and if you have a good enough reason to do your own thing to stay safe... then you're good.
In some situations, even the old "we have this issue, we are doing this" was enough to make things happen, the paperwork can be dealt with later - and if you have a good enough reason to do your own thing to stay safe... then you're good.
It sounds to me like this is the sort of thing pilots like Sunfish might find valuable. A bit of mutual understanding goes a long way!
Thread Starter
The airspace configuration is clearly wrong.
C above D with no terminal radar is likely to be a “ giant roadblock in the sky” to quote others.
It now looks as if it has contributed to a fatal accident.
C above D with no terminal radar is likely to be a “ giant roadblock in the sky” to quote others.
It now looks as if it has contributed to a fatal accident.
Please stop it. You have done well for yourself and are held in high regard, and applaud your push for safety when it’s appropriate. But you’re ruining it with your routine conduct in these particular threads.
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Last he stated he's had no interaction with CASA at all, and probably only very limited time even communicating with ATC, let alone had any strife with them.
And yes, he for one would benefit from a visit,
Last edited by Piston_Broke; 10th Nov 2019 at 02:53.
Thread Starter
Jabber. Why don’t you explain the reason for the upside down airspace?
It could have a link to this accident.
If it had remained class E the pilot would not have been forced to a lower altitude.
It could have a link to this accident.
If it had remained class E the pilot would not have been forced to a lower altitude.
I simply don’t think it is all that complicated. If you know these areas are there, you plan according and communicate with the control zones and you generally have no issues at all.
Use some respect when you talk to the person at the other end of the radio, it’s amazing what liberties that can afford you.
Have some knowledge of the process and show them you have tried and you will get a lot more out of the communication.
Plan and accept that sometimes it will not happen straight away and you have to be flexible to get what you want.
Don’t fly in to **** situations.
Having been flying on the fires just west the day this aircraft went in, it was not an ideal flying environment. It was hard work, in a helicopter, flying low level. And I’m a somewhat experienced “professional” (I use that term lightly).
And the very similar incident involving the helicopter in to Williamtown. A colleague of mine was the last person to see them alive. They landed and refilled themselves at Coffs Harbour where I had been parking my machine each night. They filled their aircraft up from fuel stored in a drum and a plastic agricultural tank they had onboard the aircraft. Initial reports from the ATSB show the pilot was not even night rated. Yet took off with no possibility at all of finishing the next leg during daylight hours.
Unfortunately these two situations were both tragic. But they were both realistically avoidable and to blame the airspace for what at best seems like poor airmanship is a massively long bow to draw and simply not fair to the people in the ATC zones doing their jobs as best they can. I think education towards the industry to realise stopping and not trying to continue at all costs might be more beneficial than changing some airspace’s that are, at present, completely manageable.
Use some respect when you talk to the person at the other end of the radio, it’s amazing what liberties that can afford you.
Have some knowledge of the process and show them you have tried and you will get a lot more out of the communication.
Plan and accept that sometimes it will not happen straight away and you have to be flexible to get what you want.
Don’t fly in to **** situations.
Having been flying on the fires just west the day this aircraft went in, it was not an ideal flying environment. It was hard work, in a helicopter, flying low level. And I’m a somewhat experienced “professional” (I use that term lightly).
And the very similar incident involving the helicopter in to Williamtown. A colleague of mine was the last person to see them alive. They landed and refilled themselves at Coffs Harbour where I had been parking my machine each night. They filled their aircraft up from fuel stored in a drum and a plastic agricultural tank they had onboard the aircraft. Initial reports from the ATSB show the pilot was not even night rated. Yet took off with no possibility at all of finishing the next leg during daylight hours.
Unfortunately these two situations were both tragic. But they were both realistically avoidable and to blame the airspace for what at best seems like poor airmanship is a massively long bow to draw and simply not fair to the people in the ATC zones doing their jobs as best they can. I think education towards the industry to realise stopping and not trying to continue at all costs might be more beneficial than changing some airspace’s that are, at present, completely manageable.
Thread Starter
Jabber. So why is the airspace upside down?
No other country that I know of has reversed airspace like this. Its clearly not the ATCs fault.
If the pilot had not been forced to a lower level he well may of continued the flight safely above the cloud.
Don’t you understand this?
No other country that I know of has reversed airspace like this. Its clearly not the ATCs fault.
If the pilot had not been forced to a lower level he well may of continued the flight safely above the cloud.
Don’t you understand this?
