Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.
LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.
Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now. Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership. You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.
I don’t think I’ve read a single post on Facebook about a negative CASA experience.
What I have heard though, is pilots that do really dumb things usually get their just deserts. There was a pilot lost his license in court in Melbourne last week, but he had many pervious chances to clean up his act over the years, but chose not to.
Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now. Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership. You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.
I don’t think I’ve read a single post on Facebook about a negative CASA experience.
What I have heard though, is pilots that do really dumb things usually get their just deserts. There was a pilot lost his license in court in Melbourne last week, but he had many pervious chances to clean up his act over the years, but chose not to.
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Yes, and the Australian forums here used to be called D&G Dunnunda and Godzone.
For a number of years now the GA forum thanks to some could be called the Doom & Gloom network.
I think the main problem with those who delight in delivering bad news to the readers of this forum is that they are suffering form severe relevance deprivation. They used to be big wheels in their respective fields and now have to constantly write about how bad Australian aviation is as "they are in the know about how the system works" The rest of us are ----wits, according to one of the wise sages because we know nothing and he knows all. Just look at the constant references in their posts. One bloke was a highly paid consultant to Government and Industry so his paranoid delusion about how aviation works in this country is the absolute truth. One bloke apparently was heavily involved with dealing with the Regulator in the nineties (almost 20 years ago) and is so knowledgeable about the world wide aviation scene that we should simply bow down before his condescension and accept that he, and only he, is the ultimate authority on the subject. Then there is Dick Smith- 'nuff said.
So all you happy pilots enjoying flying for the sheer joy of it and aviating to where you want to go, when you want to do it with whomever wants to join you, just remember that you are delusional at best and part of the conspiracy at worst.
So all you happy pilots enjoying flying for the sheer joy of it and aviating to where you want to go, when you want to do it with whomever wants to join you, just remember that you are delusional at best and part of the conspiracy at worst.
LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.
Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now. Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership. You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.
I don’t think I’ve read a single post on Facebook about a negative CASA experience.
What I have heard though, is pilots that do really dumb things usually get their just deserts. There was a pilot lost his license in court in Melbourne last week, but he had many pervious chances to clean up his act over the years, but chose not to.
Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now. Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership. You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.
I don’t think I’ve read a single post on Facebook about a negative CASA experience.
What I have heard though, is pilots that do really dumb things usually get their just deserts. There was a pilot lost his license in court in Melbourne last week, but he had many pervious chances to clean up his act over the years, but chose not to.
If GA is going gangbusters then why is there no activity at most airfields? How long is it since you've heard an aircraft in rural areas? There was atime when if you walk outside you could hear an aircraft, now maybe a couple of times a year is about it. The only regular flying is Air Ambulance doing the taxi service and the odd fire machine in the summer. As for farcebook, not everybody is on it or wants to be. Talk to any GA pilot/operator and they will tell you what CASA is doing to GA. Remember the CASA moto "We're not happy till your not happy", pretty much sums it up.
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If GA is going gangbusters then why is there no activity at most airfields?
Within about 100km radius of here - rural area - there are a number of aerodromes, most of which have reasonable levels of traffic particularly on weekends i.e. joy flights, training, transits etc. including gliding. During the week still activity, but reduced. In fact one of the aerodromes is about to undergo works funded by the council to upgrade it.
Talk to any GA pilot/operator and they will tell you what CASA is doing to GA.
In 40 years I haven't had any issues with CASA or its predecessors.
SAID HANRAHAN by John O'Brien (1878 - 1952)
I have been in GA for 40 years both as an operator and employee. The "Authority" used to be for aviation, seems the last 20 years or so it has degraded to proliferation of paperwork and enforcement.
You might be right about increased flying activity, I just saw what looked like a 172 flying locally, second time this year so things must be on the up and up
You might be right about increased flying activity, I just saw what looked like a 172 flying locally, second time this year so things must be on the up and up
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You might be right about increased flying activity, I just saw what looked like a 172 flying locally, second time this year so things must be on the up and up
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LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.
Hey Squawk, what good ole days would they be? I started flying in the late 80's, early 90's I remember Bankstown being so full of aircraft that you'd taxy around for 15 minutes looking for a park. The Tower was staffed properly and they used all 3 runways, learned lots in those days. Gees, if I remember correctly they'd have 10-12 in the training circuit? They 'gently reminded' you of how wide your circuit was if it was crap.
Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now.
Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership.
You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.
Bit of a theme going on here?
As Glen continually says, all the GA industry wants is clear and concise, readable and understandable legislation. It's not. I do some Instructor Ratings, a fair amount of the course is taken up interpreting legislation. That should not be the case.
Sled is right, no matter what you think of his personality or his writing manner. Get out of this bubble, go to the States, when I first started flying there I had people literally toss me the keys to their aircraft for a fly. After I converted my licence and did the Flight Review my very first flight was ferrying a mates aircraft into Oshkosh, no-one sitting beside me to hold my hand. Couldn't have been simpler. There's no way I'd ask an overseas licenced pilot on their first solo flight into a Class D tower here.
For all of the garbage and exorbitant cost of 'safety' happening here, safety outcomes are no better, they're simply not. Our GA aviation is more similar to the US so EASA is not relevant here.
What Aero Clubs?? ----- So many have gone, most of the rest hanging on by a thread, with little or no GA happening, opportunities outside of RAOz (except for big bucks "airline pilot" training) for training getting sparser and sparser, particularly in the country.
RACNSW long gone,
RQAC gone.
RNAC with big problems
and so on.
I would love to have the opportunity of a drink at the "cub", I am a member of one club valiantly trying to maintain its existence, the "bar" opens one evening a week, but it's three hours drive home.
I am seeing hugely inflated reports of airport activity in local government.
Dare I say it, deliberately fabricated and over-inflated claims.
The economic justification for the $23.5m Scone Airport upgrade, for example, is intentionally false.
RAAus is rather cock a'hoop at the moment but GA is moribund. The underlying reason for this is that CASA continues to provide RAAus pilots privileges (such as self-certified medical and PPL-qualified instructors) not afforded to Licenced pilots. Those above can Squark all they like about the AOPA vs RAAus rift but the underlying truth is that RAAus is seeking membership (and revenue) growth at the expense of other sectors of GA, and AOPA has called them on it. AOPA seeks greater freedom for ALL pilots but RAAus sees that as a competitive threat.
The tragedy is that AOPA should be an industry lobby group for all GA, but have been wedged by RAAus into defending themselves and their non-Sports membership against RAAus territorial aggression. RAAus is like China in GA's South China Sea.
BITRE statistics show a 25% drop in GA activity from 2002 to 2016. If you exclude RAAus numbers the total drop is even worse. Those who think GA is doing great are having themselves on and deliberately ignoring the evidence around them.
Dare I say it, deliberately fabricated and over-inflated claims.
The economic justification for the $23.5m Scone Airport upgrade, for example, is intentionally false.
RAAus is rather cock a'hoop at the moment but GA is moribund. The underlying reason for this is that CASA continues to provide RAAus pilots privileges (such as self-certified medical and PPL-qualified instructors) not afforded to Licenced pilots. Those above can Squark all they like about the AOPA vs RAAus rift but the underlying truth is that RAAus is seeking membership (and revenue) growth at the expense of other sectors of GA, and AOPA has called them on it. AOPA seeks greater freedom for ALL pilots but RAAus sees that as a competitive threat.
The tragedy is that AOPA should be an industry lobby group for all GA, but have been wedged by RAAus into defending themselves and their non-Sports membership against RAAus territorial aggression. RAAus is like China in GA's South China Sea.
BITRE statistics show a 25% drop in GA activity from 2002 to 2016. If you exclude RAAus numbers the total drop is even worse. Those who think GA is doing great are having themselves on and deliberately ignoring the evidence around them.
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Four aircraft from SHEPPARTON went to Balranald via Swan Hill on Friday. Returned today.
Demanding trip up, especially last leg as we hit the front passing through (no rain, but plenty of dust). Great little town. Spent a couple of hours with volunteers who run the aviation museum. Full size replicas of Southern Cross and Lady Southern Cross plus many other things to see. Lots of interest from locals who made us feel very welcome.
Much more pleasant coming home with a bit of a tail wind part of the way. Cloud was developing along the way and it was so useful having cameras at Swan Hill, Kerang, Denny, Toc and Shepp to keep an eye on it.
Thanks Squawk and Co for setting these up...major safety improvement for all of us who fly.
Demanding trip up, especially last leg as we hit the front passing through (no rain, but plenty of dust). Great little town. Spent a couple of hours with volunteers who run the aviation museum. Full size replicas of Southern Cross and Lady Southern Cross plus many other things to see. Lots of interest from locals who made us feel very welcome.
Much more pleasant coming home with a bit of a tail wind part of the way. Cloud was developing along the way and it was so useful having cameras at Swan Hill, Kerang, Denny, Toc and Shepp to keep an eye on it.
Thanks Squawk and Co for setting these up...major safety improvement for all of us who fly.
Shhhhhhh about the cameras kaz! There are dark forces out there who have a view about CAR 120 and the use of images from those cameras in the planning, conduct and control of flights.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 30th Sep 2019 at 00:07. Reason: Turn the sentence into English!
Thread Starter
...and the camera thing is apparently enabled by a business owned by someone here which might explain certain attitudes.
Most of the (many) aerodromes I’ve flown in and out of over the last 3 decades are ghost towns compared to what they were in the 80s. The primary reasons for that are airport privatisation and over-regulation of ‘traditional’ GA. Those who’ve joined the exodus to fringe airstrips and various associations may be enjoying some milk and honey, but the exodus need not have happened in the first place.
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Most of the (many) aerodromes I’ve flown in and out of over the last 3 decades are ghost towns compared to what they were in the 80s. The primary reasons for that are airport privatisation and over-regulation of ‘traditional’ GA. Those who’ve joined the exodus to fringe airstrips and various associations may be enjoying some milk and honey, but the exodus need not have happened in the first place.
Is it regulation or airport privatisation that has driven that? Partly yes, but who can afford to go and but a new plane these days to enjoy our hobby/profession, not me. Cirrus $500k-900k, Cessna C172 ~$450-500k. So we are left with an old aging fleet that possibly people just are not flying. Go to an aero club and you will see Jabiru, Tecnams etc around the circuit, some cessnas and not much more. The cost of the new aircraft is directly related to what Cessna or Cirrus are charging. Yes Australian regulations make it all the more costly, but is it really the $200+ ASIC and $300+ medical keeping you out of the sky, or just not wanting to rent/fly a 30 year old aging plane.
So is the reality that to continue flying the 20-30 year old Cessna 152 parked up on the grass, you need to get maintenance up to date, fix a few things, update the insurance etc etc, which people just can't be arsed doing, and no can afford to renew the fleet.
I think you will find that while the rental cost for a 172 is not great, the rental market, at least in our aero club, is doing ok. Its the wider cost that is the issue.
How many planes parked up under the covers on the grass, that have been there for ten years, will ever fly again. Not because of the regulation costs, ASIC, Medical, just because the owner doesnt have the will or means to do so.
Just my 2c
Looking at some more recent aviation history.... Back a reasonable number of years ago, CASA introduced the LSA category. The biggest reason for this as per the initial whitepapers was to lower the cost of aircraft available for flying schools in order to keep flying schools profitable and to level the playing field with RA-Aus schools that were categorically booming at the time. GA schools were screaming very loudly about the flood of RA aircraft and schools available at a fraction of the cost of GA aircraft. LSA was a great idea as it allowed the lower cost “certification” of aircraft to enable GA flying schools to buy lower cost (including Australian made) aircraft.
You only have to look at the likes of Soar to see how successful this new approach was. Initially buying LSA Jabiru’s for sub $60k and then Foxbats for around $90k, to the point now of some 30+ aircraft at Moorabbin alone, including FoxBats, Vixens, Bristell’s and now Tecnams.
The side-effect of this however, appears to be bringing on the demise of the 172 for anything other than the big sausage factories such as Oxford.
Lets see what the long term future holds. The ratio of Rotax to Lycoming in GA may surprise many, particularly with LSA style 4 seaters with 115-150hp Turbo Rotaxes hitting the market now.
You only have to look at the likes of Soar to see how successful this new approach was. Initially buying LSA Jabiru’s for sub $60k and then Foxbats for around $90k, to the point now of some 30+ aircraft at Moorabbin alone, including FoxBats, Vixens, Bristell’s and now Tecnams.
The side-effect of this however, appears to be bringing on the demise of the 172 for anything other than the big sausage factories such as Oxford.
Lets see what the long term future holds. The ratio of Rotax to Lycoming in GA may surprise many, particularly with LSA style 4 seaters with 115-150hp Turbo Rotaxes hitting the market now.
I sat in an FAA/Rotax presentation at Oshkosh in the US about four years back and was very surprised to hear from the FAA men some of the industry statistics at the bottom end of the US aviation spectrum.
I was shocked to hear that there are more hours flown every year in the USA behind a Rotax engine than both Continental and Lycoming added together.
That is a pretty powerful statement and statistic about how many people have transitioned into the lower end of aviation markets.
One of the other great statistics that I remember taking in from this presentation was that the failure rate with Rotax engines was less than Continental and Lycoming.
I was shocked to hear that there are more hours flown every year in the USA behind a Rotax engine than both Continental and Lycoming added together.
That is a pretty powerful statement and statistic about how many people have transitioned into the lower end of aviation markets.
One of the other great statistics that I remember taking in from this presentation was that the failure rate with Rotax engines was less than Continental and Lycoming.
I think you have grossly over simplified things. In the 80s a large portion of the aircraft fleet would have been new or near new, just based on the statistics of the age of the current Australian fleet. New shiny toys that people were owning/renting/sharing, being flown and enjoyed. Fuel was possibly relatively cheaper etc. What has changed? The fleet is now old and largely unused, with the exception of the RAAus fleet which is newer and expanding as it is cheaper to get into.
Is it regulation or airport privatisation that has driven that? Partly yes, but who can afford to go and but a new plane these days to enjoy our hobby/profession, not me. Cirrus $500k-900k, Cessna C172 ~$450-500k. So we are left with an old aging fleet that possibly people just are not flying. Go to an aero club and you will see Jabiru, Tecnams etc around the circuit, some cessnas and not much more. The cost of the new aircraft is directly related to what Cessna or Cirrus are charging. Yes Australian regulations make it all the more costly, but is it really the $200+ ASIC and $300+ medical keeping you out of the sky, or just not wanting to rent/fly a 30 year old aging plane.
So is the reality that to continue flying the 20-30 year old Cessna 152 parked up on the grass, you need to get maintenance up to date, fix a few things, update the insurance etc etc, which people just can't be arsed doing, and no can afford to renew the fleet.
I think you will find that while the rental cost for a 172 is not great, the rental market, at least in our aero club, is doing ok. Its the wider cost that is the issue.
How many planes parked up under the covers on the grass, that have been there for ten years, will ever fly again. Not because of the regulation costs, ASIC, Medical, just because the owner doesnt have the will or means to do so.
Just my 2c
Is it regulation or airport privatisation that has driven that? Partly yes, but who can afford to go and but a new plane these days to enjoy our hobby/profession, not me. Cirrus $500k-900k, Cessna C172 ~$450-500k. So we are left with an old aging fleet that possibly people just are not flying. Go to an aero club and you will see Jabiru, Tecnams etc around the circuit, some cessnas and not much more. The cost of the new aircraft is directly related to what Cessna or Cirrus are charging. Yes Australian regulations make it all the more costly, but is it really the $200+ ASIC and $300+ medical keeping you out of the sky, or just not wanting to rent/fly a 30 year old aging plane.
So is the reality that to continue flying the 20-30 year old Cessna 152 parked up on the grass, you need to get maintenance up to date, fix a few things, update the insurance etc etc, which people just can't be arsed doing, and no can afford to renew the fleet.
I think you will find that while the rental cost for a 172 is not great, the rental market, at least in our aero club, is doing ok. Its the wider cost that is the issue.
How many planes parked up under the covers on the grass, that have been there for ten years, will ever fly again. Not because of the regulation costs, ASIC, Medical, just because the owner doesnt have the will or means to do so.
Just my 2c
If you think it’s easier and cheaper to get a medical certificate now than it was in 1980s, you obviously weren’t there. The ‘safety’ benefit of the complexity created by scaremongering amateurs? Nil. Outcome? Exodus out of activities requiring a medical certificate.
If you think it’s easier and cheaper to park an aircraft at a privatised airport now than it was at an airport in the 1980s, you obviously weren’t there. Outcome? Exodus of aircraft away from locations convenient for the owner.
The “cost” of ASIC requirements is not just the fee.
Look at a map of Avgas-available aerodromes from the 1980s compared with today.
There’s a reason people are not investing in new GA aircraft. The concept of light aircraft being a convenient means of transport - both private and commercial - to defeat the ‘tyranny of distance’ in Australia has been crushed by unnecessary complexity, cost and inconvenience.