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Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.

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Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.

Old 30th Sep 2019, 08:01
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
The concept of light aircraft being a convenient means of transport - both private and commercial - to defeat the ‘tyranny of distance’ in Australia has been crushed by unnecessary complexity, cost and inconvenience.
More likely:
  • cheap airfares
  • increase in cost of housing, utilities, schools etc. and other drains on disposable income
  • improved road networks
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 08:08
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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So what is the current airfare from - say - Bourke to Bankstown? What was it in the 1980s?
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 09:06
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Stupid question really. There is no airservice and never has been.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 10:00
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Stupid question really. There is no airservice and never has been.
Wow. So no commercial aircraft has ever flown a passenger from Bourke to Bankstown? Are you sure LL? Really sure?

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Old 30th Sep 2019, 10:07
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Are you asking about a charter or a RPT airfare?

Last edited by Awol57; 30th Sep 2019 at 10:07. Reason: typo
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 11:13
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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As I can’t help but ask stupid questions, what were the categories of air service licence issued under ANR 191 in the 80s?
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 14:14
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Really I was just trying to sort out my searches, but my idle curiosity isn't that idle.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 22:02
  #48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Piston_Broke View Post
More likely:
  • cheap airfares
  • increase in cost of housing, utilities, schools etc. and other drains on disposable income
  • improved road networks
Bull*$##! The improved road networks simply take you to the capital city traffic jams and clogged suburban freeways. Furthermore, we are stuck with maximum speed limits of 110 kmh and concerted campaigns in some states to wind speed limits backwards to 80 kmh in many areas.

The cheap airfares only exist between capital cities - I think we currently have a government enquiry into the high cost of RPT flights to regional destinations and yes,

disposable income has not kept up with the increasing costs of over regulation of general aviation.

Don't even mention the train systems which are already overloaded and inconveniently timed for many country travelers.

My “commute” to Melbourne is now 3 hours, it used to be two and a half. Yet by air (C172) it’s 45 minutes to YMMB (by my experience​​​​​​) and probably 30 and twenty to Essendon and lilydale respectively.

If I put on my dreaming glasses for a minute, Melbourne could be served by Essendon to the North, Lilydale to the North East, Moorabbin to the South and Point Cook to the West. Then you would have a proper opportunity to match transport modes to destinations.

I think Sydney and Brisbane have similar issues. Contrast that with places like LA where flying from one side of the city to the other is an option.

Thanks to CASA over regulation, or perhaps deliberate choice by the department of transport and infrastructure, the Australian population is never going to get the chance to experience General Aviation as a competitor to other transport modes.

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Old 30th Sep 2019, 22:20
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Awol57 View Post
Really I was just trying to sort out my searches, but my idle curiosity isn't that idle.
Search for “Airlines of New South Wales” on Wikipedia and look at the list of “Destinations”, which includes “Bourke”.

And have a look at this: https://www.dailyliberal.com.au/stor...o-to-be-a-hub/

There have been supplemental airline services / LCRPT and charter services to and from Bourke on and off for decades. There’s a reason they now have to be subsidised.
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 05:19
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
The improved road networks simply take you to the capital city traffic jams and clogged suburban freeways.
The improved country road networks may indeed have motivated some to now choose to drive to some country destinations, rather than hire an aircraft and fly as they might have in the past. The appeal is a comfortable car, lower cost, the flexibility of visiting places of interest enroute, and have road transport at the end.

The cheap airfares only exist between capital cities
Speaking from experience, the family would much rather fly by airline in comfort to a destination e.g. MEL > BNE than be cooped up in a light aircraft for many more hours flying between the same locations.

Flying may appeal to we pilots, but its not something necessarily shared by all members of a family.

Melbourne could be served by Essendon to the North, Lilydale to the North East, Moorabbin to the South and Point Cook to the West. Then you would have a proper opportunity to match transport modes to destinations.
You would have the issue of road transport at the destination, unless you rent, use PT or make some other arrangement. I suspect that's why people choose to drive, despite capital city traffic congestion.
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 06:02
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Not so stupid as Lookleft stupidly suggests. The current tyranny of distance COSTS !
For business, medical or any other reason a Burketown resident can expect this....
Savvanah Air chtr/rpt to Mt Isa. Not cheap .
Mt Isa to BNE. mega bucks.
BNE to SYD cheapo by Tiger, Virgin etc
Road or rail to Bankstown.$$.?
Hardly likely to happen in one day either depending on connections. And the cost would be more that a return economy class to Europe.!
If this BKTN resident is a pilot ,gone to Bankstown to pick up an aircraft, he can the sort out a way back, having to avoid derelect airfields with no fuel or businesses left. Fuel uplift on route will cost megabucks and the levy/GA tax still within now goes to general revenue instead of to 'support' poor casa who got it originally and have buggered GA in the process.

As Malcolm said ..Life wasnt meant to be easy. Or bureaucratized to death, either.
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 07:58
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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AAAHH....,

The 'original' 2cents per litre levy, USED to pay for 'Flight Service', so I was informed many years ago.

'Flight Service'....dedicated to all those, who, can remember......apols to the old 'radio serial soapie, 'When a Girl Marries' Radio 2GB I think circa 1950...ish…..

When aircraft wuz either IN CTA - OR OUT!!!

RHS wuz supposed to get rid of this, so we were told so many many times, so that flying would 'cost us less'...and be 'safer'.....so far, I don't really think either has occurred...…

p.s. Thanks Dick for......
:
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 08:44
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Not so stupid as Lookleft stupidly suggests. The current tyranny of distance COSTS !
For business, medical or any other reason a Burketown resident can expect this....
Savvanah Air chtr/rpt to Mt Isa. Not cheap .
Mt Isa to BNE. mega bucks.
BNE to SYD cheapo by Tiger, Virgin etc
Road or rail to Bankstown.$$.?
Hardly likely to happen in one day either depending on connections. And the cost would be more that a return economy class to Europe.!
If this BKTN resident is a pilot ,gone to Bankstown to pick up an aircraft, he can the sort out a way back, having to avoid derelect airfields with no fuel or businesses left. Fuel uplift on route will cost megabucks and the levy/GA tax still within now goes to general revenue instead of to 'support' poor casa who got it originally and have buggered GA in the process.

As Malcolm said ..Life wasnt meant to be easy. Or bureaucratized to death, either.
I think you’ve got Bourke and Burketown confused...
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 09:04
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for your references LB but i still don't see where there was a direct airservice from Bourke to Bankstown in the 80's or now. Air NSW might have flown to Bankstown in the 50's but Air NSW in the 80's flew into Mascot. So the stupidity of your question stands.
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Old 1st Oct 2019, 12:55
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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One of your very endearing features, LL, is your propensity to put the other foot in your mouth after being informed of the presence of the first there.

I said:
So what is the current airfare from - say - Bourke to Bankstown? What was it in the 1980s?
You said, in response:
Stupid question really. There is no airservice and never has been.
Are you sure that there has never been an airservice from Bourke to Bankstown, ever in the period from the 1980s to the present? Really sure? No one in that period could pay an airfare to be carried from Bourke to Bankstown?
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 09:04
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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And one of your less endearing features LB is to always be a pompous smart alec ex-CASA lawyer. Of course you went the lawyer path of asking a question that you already knew the answer to and of course you are alluding to the ability to charter an aircraft from anywhere to anywhere else. The evidence that you provided however,(from an authoritative source such as Wikipedia) simply stated Bourke as a destination for Air NSW but not that it had an airservice between Bourke and Bankstown. Your other source of evidence was a website to a blurb called the Liberal news, talking about a proposed airservice between Bourke and Dubbo from what I can tell.I have been around this industry long enough to know that there is always plenty of talk about airservices being provided but not a lot of shiny new aeroplanes actually doing the job. Don Kendell stated that the only reason he announced that his airline was getting the SAAB 2000 was for the publicity. So if you are going to put up evidence in the court of PPRuNe make sure it backs up the question that you are asking. So yes your question was and still is a stupid one.

On the issue of the tyranny of distance being able to support squadrons of light aircraft it never has and it never will. I agree with the statement that there is less activity than in the 80's but I think you will find that there is a lot less disposable income available and that a lot of people who might have taken up flying recreationaly simply don't have the money for it. Regulations and bureaucracy haven't helped but aviation is not unique in that. Don't forget that DS was railing against CASA and its predecessors 30 years ago for over-regulation. So if the burden of regulation existed then and it exists now what has changed that has led to the downturn in GA? In my view it is less demand for ad-hoc charter. The companies that did bank runs in the 80's also did charter. With technology bankruns are no longer required. Agribusiness is shrinking because of drought and rationalisation so there are less small landowners who might have used GA as a method of transport. Young pilots can get fee-help and learn to fly in the big schools in the cities. They then get instructing jobs and move onto bigger and better things. Very few young pilots that i come into contact with have had to go bush to get the hours to get into airlines. A lot of them go instructing then straight into regional where they get commands in 3-4 years then move to jets. Unheard of in the 80's and 90's. There is also the issue that has always been part of the Australian story is that most of the population lives within 50km of the coast. LCC have seen more of those people, including businessman simply hop on a jet to the Whitsundays or Cairns or the Gold Coast. Places that would have inspired people in the 80's to learn to fly and jump in a lighty.
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 23:14
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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General Aviation – its own enemy?
“It was realised by the committee that expansion of the order of recent years could not continue indefinitely and that some form of consolidation would finally hit the industry. This has indeed been most general throughout Australia and it appears to have affected the eastern States more than WA. There is a need for new thinking and the industry, during the next years or so, will no doubt witness substantial changes.”

Many contributors here suggest that the downturn in GA has its genesis in the actions of governments and commercial enterprises and the resulting increase in costs and loss of facilities. These concerns also included what has become almost a tradition in GA – the statement that it was all better in the days of DCA and Sir Donald Anderson.
I believe that it is time that GA joined the beginning of the 21st century and stopped languishing in the middle of the 20th. Government policies, public expectations, the economy and business effectiveness have changed. Unfortunately, a culture within GA of blaming everyone else for the effects of these changes is blinding us to what we must do to catch up.

First, let’s understand the significance today of the era of DCA and Sir Donald Anderson. Over the period of Anderson’s tenure as Director General, (1956-1973) there are some aviation and significant non-aviation factors that need to be considered:

· the country as a whole was emerging from the economic effects of a global war.
· regional infrastructure (including sealed roads) was limited and motor vehicles were only just beginning to approach the comfort and capability we enjoy today.
· the Australian aircraft fleet grew from 903 aircraft to approximately 4,000. Today there are in the vicinity of 18,000 when the RA-Aus fleet is included.
· unemployment from 1940 to 1970 was between 1%-3%
· the share of Gross Domestic Product from mining went from 50% to 70% with attendant growth in air travel to remote areas
· the proportion of GDP from agriculture declined from nearly 20% to less than 5%

In 1959 the Parliament passed a Bill allowing the granting of leases for businesses on airports. This was intended to ensure some economic return on the funds invested in airport development. It was also a continuation of the cost recovery process begun in 1947 when airways charges were introduced for the first time.

By the end of the sixties things were beginning to change even more. The Federal Government announced that after several years of discussing the issue, the flying training subsidy scheme would be closed down. This had been in place in various forms since 1924. The subsidies were introduced to encourage the early development of the industry, then to support military training and then again to support growth in the post war period.

With the removal of the restrictions on training arising from funding eligibility rules and the creation of a level (although perhaps uneconomic) playing field the number of flying schools began to increase beyond the former aero club group of 43 with 177 aircraft. The records of the aero clubs at the time reflect concern over considerable loss of earnings as a result of the loss of the subsidised training of commercial pilots and many were recording financial losses.

Since the early 1970s there have been many more changes in the world in which we live and operate. A succession of governments, from both sides of politics, have identified public support (or at least only fractured opposition) to the concept of cost recovery for, and privatisation of, a huge range of services and facilities. These were previously accepted as the responsibility of government with funding coming from the entire tax paying public. However, Australian society was changing, the economy had blossomed and individuals who had not seen economic depression – the baby boomers- were flexing their political and economic muscles.

One of the most significant changes was the dramatically increasing range of choice in almost all aspects of life. This could be perceived as the start of a new world for general aviation. It is possible that understanding and dealing with such changes is the key to success in general aviation.

With this increase in choice, together with increasing disposable incomes, marketing of opportunities to buy new experiences has blossomed. Whether they be in domestic or international travel, sports cars, extreme adventure sports or substantial mortgages, marketing has become critical. Despite the marketing of almost anything appearing everywhere we look, when did you last see an advertisement of any sort for flying training or aircraft charter outside an aviation magazine or tourist brochure rack? It is a fundamental rule of any business selling a product, that no one will buy the product if they don’t know what it is or where to find it.

People with businesses in general aviation regularly lay blame for their parlous economic state on government, the regulator, big business or any other target of opportunity. Sure, better roads, better motor cars, airfares lower than ever dreamed of in the ‘70s and several years of drought have had dramatic impacts on many parts of GA. In some cases those reductions in activity might be irrecoverable because what displaced them is cheaper and more convenient. Despite this, there are general aviation businesses that are succeeding and growing. The fleet of aircraft, which grew from 900 to 4,000 in the Anderson/DCA era of 17 years, has grown to around 18,000 in the subsequent 30 years and people still learn to fly.

GA might be succeeding in spite of itself. When was the last time the participants in industry worked together to:
· identify and quantify credibly the contribution the sector makes to the economy and community well being?
· promote aviation as a challenging, rewarding and enjoyable recreation?
· create an impression of being a well organised, professional and enthusiastic group?
It is unlikely that we will see sustained and widespread improvement if we do not understand and penetrate the market represented by the entire population of what is a very prosperous country.

To provide some credence to these ideas, the quote at the beginning came from the annual report of the Royal Aero Club of WA in 1967-68.
Bibliography
Ayris, C.Wings of Chamge Royal Aero Club of Western Australia, Perth 1999
http://www.casa.gov.au/casadata/register/graph.htm
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/110/PDF/round3.pdf
Parnell, P. & Boughton, T. Flypast AGPS Press , Canberra 1988
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 00:17
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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9 new weather cameras just set up for 4 new locations, to go in the post tomorrow.

Aviation is far from dead in this country!
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 00:32
  #59 (permalink)  
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Vag277, the bit that is left out of your excellent summary is that it neglects the emergence and potential growth of new light aviation markets while concentrating on the “traditional “ markets, such as pure regional transport which it is argued, are in decline due to better roads, etc. They may well be but what about new markets?

To put that another way, you argue that there is increased choice and competition for disposable income. Correct, but where are the competitive aviation products that should be emerging here in competition as they are overseas?

For example: transport for hunting/fishing/hiking/skiing parties? Aerial sightseeing? Aerial taxi/commute services? Aerial food and wine touring? Aerial camping/safaris/touring? Air parks - residential. Medical services by air. Computer services by air. Business services by air. There must be more!

The answer is that over regulation of aviation in Australia prevents this form of business investment and the jobs and the taxation revenue and the economic growth. Just go to the US or NZ to see what I mean!

Last edited by Sunfish; 3rd Oct 2019 at 00:49.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 01:50
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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There is an emerging aviation market in Australia that is regulated by CASA and that is the increasing use of drones. Already there are food delivery services in Canberra. The missing ingredient for a lot of what has been listed is consumers. America has multiple times the number that Australia has. Fishing, hunting skiing trips? Honestly who is going to spend that money to go heliskiing in Australia. NZ and Alaska have much more inaccessible wilderness than here. Regulation is a part of the issue but not the only barrier to the sort of aviation activities referred to.
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