Mooney 2POB missing west of Coffs Harbour
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LFA:
Now we see your true colours; you are 'trucks and buses' we are just teenage tattooed scum using skateboards.....and YOU own the roads.
Get this straight VH - LFA, I have just spent seven weeks in Europe driving the Autoroutes, Autobahns and Autostradas for only about 4034 km. Over there, in civilised countries, the trucks are required to drive at least 10 kmh slower than us "scum" in mere cars and the trucks are not allowed to drive in the outer lanes which have to be kept free for cars. Why? For safety of course! it has been that way for at least 40 years! Perhaps we need to tighten the restrictions on how YOU fly and leave us skateboard riders alone.
I think you must be a little slow. I have never noticed problems in the U.S. separating traffic. It appears to me that RAAF and RPT pilots here are either inept or *******, sorry, "risk averse", or perhaps both because no one else seems to need the huge exclusion zones you inflict on us, or maybe its just snobbery, you don't like to share with ordinary folk... i guess that's possible since you don't appear to like the American egalitarian model. Do you perhaps hanker for the days of brooklands and biggin hill? Dancing at the Savoy? When only proper gentlemen flew aircraft?
It should be an unalienable Australian right to be able to take your skateboard on the freeway and make trucks and buses try and avoid you. No one owns the roads.
Get this straight VH - LFA, I have just spent seven weeks in Europe driving the Autoroutes, Autobahns and Autostradas for only about 4034 km. Over there, in civilised countries, the trucks are required to drive at least 10 kmh slower than us "scum" in mere cars and the trucks are not allowed to drive in the outer lanes which have to be kept free for cars. Why? For safety of course! it has been that way for at least 40 years! Perhaps we need to tighten the restrictions on how YOU fly and leave us skateboard riders alone.
I think you must be a little slow. I have never noticed problems in the U.S. separating traffic. It appears to me that RAAF and RPT pilots here are either inept or *******, sorry, "risk averse", or perhaps both because no one else seems to need the huge exclusion zones you inflict on us, or maybe its just snobbery, you don't like to share with ordinary folk... i guess that's possible since you don't appear to like the American egalitarian model. Do you perhaps hanker for the days of brooklands and biggin hill? Dancing at the Savoy? When only proper gentlemen flew aircraft?
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If private cars were restricted from using freeways, commercial drivers would be celebrating. They would tell you how private drivers didn't understand the braking distances required for a truck, so it is too dangerous to mix cars and trucks on the same road. They would tell you how much extra fuel it would cost if they had to deal with car traffic. They would tell you that buses have many more passengers than cars, so cars should not be allowed to delay them. They would tell you that they are doing productive work, vs. the private car drivers just out for a drive or visiting friends.
They would probably be right. Many (e.g. public transport advocates) would support banning private vehicles on freeways and having everyone take public transport. The world might be a better place. But it would be very different.
You didn't realize commercial pilots were public transport zealot greenies, did you
Last edited by andrewr; 23rd Sep 2019 at 10:48. Reason: typo
LFA:
Now we see your true colours; you are 'trucks and buses' we are just teenage tattooed scum using skateboards.....and YOU own the roads.
Get this straight VH - LFA, I have just spent seven weeks in Europe driving the Autoroutes, Autobahns and Autostradas for only about 4034 km. Over there, in civilised countries, the trucks are required to drive at least 10 kmh slower than us "scum" in mere cars and the trucks are not allowed to drive in the outer lanes which have to be kept free for cars.
Now we see your true colours; you are 'trucks and buses' we are just teenage tattooed scum using skateboards.....and YOU own the roads.
Get this straight VH - LFA, I have just spent seven weeks in Europe driving the Autoroutes, Autobahns and Autostradas for only about 4034 km. Over there, in civilised countries, the trucks are required to drive at least 10 kmh slower than us "scum" in mere cars and the trucks are not allowed to drive in the outer lanes which have to be kept free for cars.
I use both, the metaphor was in reference to the use of transponders in Class E. Sorry to give you an aneurism sunny. Avalon E works quite nicely, both at work but also on the weekend when I’ve used it. I’d hate to be arriving there though if VFR traffic weren’t on mode C.
I think I’ve pointed out multiple times now that I pay for my own flying, I’m not exactly not on your side. If anything I have quite a balanced view (or at least, I like to think so) as both sides of the argument affect me as it does a lot of others. You’ll have noticed I’ve never said anything in support ASICs, costs of regulation, many of the bizarre restrictions placed on us as pilots just want to enjoy flying. I have plenty of my own red tape grievances with our regulator, which while not appropriate to share, have been no end of frustrating to me.
Things like asking for clearances, filing flight plans and squawking aren’t hard or I’d think massive concessions in the modern age. On the contrary they make things safer for everyone and are quite practical. Directly in this thread, planning not to use Coffs CTA (if that’s what occurred) due to it being too burdensome is a bit silly.
Maybe I am a little slow, but I do do this most days of the year, in varying capacities. Both IFR and VFR paying my way, I love flying, not just as a job but believe it or not as a hobby. There’s balance to what everyone wants; what we have now is too far in one way, what others want is too far the other.
I think I’ve pointed out multiple times now that I pay for my own flying, I’m not exactly not on your side. If anything I have quite a balanced view (or at least, I like to think so) as both sides of the argument affect me as it does a lot of others. You’ll have noticed I’ve never said anything in support ASICs, costs of regulation, many of the bizarre restrictions placed on us as pilots just want to enjoy flying. I have plenty of my own red tape grievances with our regulator, which while not appropriate to share, have been no end of frustrating to me.
Things like asking for clearances, filing flight plans and squawking aren’t hard or I’d think massive concessions in the modern age. On the contrary they make things safer for everyone and are quite practical. Directly in this thread, planning not to use Coffs CTA (if that’s what occurred) due to it being too burdensome is a bit silly.
Maybe I am a little slow, but I do do this most days of the year, in varying capacities. Both IFR and VFR paying my way, I love flying, not just as a job but believe it or not as a hobby. There’s balance to what everyone wants; what we have now is too far in one way, what others want is too far the other.
Last edited by junior.VH-LFA; 23rd Sep 2019 at 12:24.
Yet those who think Class E is a “quite pointless concept” will fly their RPT aircraft full of passengers in G.
I never expected to come to the conclusion that aviation is the area of regulation in Australia that is the least informed by objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses, but I’m frequently reminded of that fact.
I never expected to come to the conclusion that aviation is the area of regulation in Australia that is the least informed by objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses, but I’m frequently reminded of that fact.
Yet those who think Class E is a “quite pointless concept” will fly their RPT aircraft full of passengers in G.
I never expected to come to the conclusion that aviation is the area of regulation in Australia that is the least informed by objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses, but I’m frequently reminded of that fact.
I never expected to come to the conclusion that aviation is the area of regulation in Australia that is the least informed by objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses, but I’m frequently reminded of that fact.
I look forward to you and Cap’n Bloggs debating the issue.
can’t win them all!ADSB would help support Class E airspace. But there’s been some pretty fierce resistance to that also. I was under the belief ASA was trying to increase the amount of Class E in Aus anyway, using improvements in technology as a driver for that.
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...ange-Final.pdf
VH-LFA my post is over the top and I apologise.
What I think I am trying to say is that all airspace users have equal rights and attempts to differentiate are ending in tragedy.
What I think I am trying to say is that all airspace users have equal rights and attempts to differentiate are ending in tragedy.
All good, we all get passionate about the things we care about. We can agree to disagree, I appreciate your passion for aviation, whether I agree with you or not.
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Airservices is putting together a proposal to change the C to E over Coffs, which will make some in this thread happy.
I can't post links yet but there is a file about Coffs on the Airservices airspace modernisation site.
I can't post links yet but there is a file about Coffs on the Airservices airspace modernisation site.
It's all about money.....
GA drivers avoid IFR & C because Air Services charges exorbitantly.
Conversly, every day our arline drivers are forced to mix it in regional centre CTAFs with GA aircraft of varied levels of equipment, awareness and competence because we are too cheap to have decent regional ATC. No wonder you all have snow white hair! I'd hate to have 150 in the back in an Australian CTAF trying to sort out where each of them are.
What? we have no money to put ATC in a tower when an airliner is due in? Well with the wonderful plan of 50 million by 2050 you'd all better put your fingers in your ears because there might be a big bang soon.
F...ck me, they even do this in India
Here, in Australia INC. EVERY EFFING THING IS ABOUT PROFIT! Even our military is too cheap to have decent ATC.
Here s a message; change the rampant capitalistic model and bring back older values of making our land a d e cent place to live for the people that pay taxes for it. Accidents such as this shouldn't happen in a well run system.
In Australia, CASA and ASA have forced pilots and ATC to hate each other and this shouldn't be the case - we are a team, ATC are not the police.
GA drivers avoid IFR & C because Air Services charges exorbitantly.
Conversly, every day our arline drivers are forced to mix it in regional centre CTAFs with GA aircraft of varied levels of equipment, awareness and competence because we are too cheap to have decent regional ATC. No wonder you all have snow white hair! I'd hate to have 150 in the back in an Australian CTAF trying to sort out where each of them are.
What? we have no money to put ATC in a tower when an airliner is due in? Well with the wonderful plan of 50 million by 2050 you'd all better put your fingers in your ears because there might be a big bang soon.
F...ck me, they even do this in India
Here, in Australia INC. EVERY EFFING THING IS ABOUT PROFIT! Even our military is too cheap to have decent ATC.
Here s a message; change the rampant capitalistic model and bring back older values of making our land a d e cent place to live for the people that pay taxes for it. Accidents such as this shouldn't happen in a well run system.
In Australia, CASA and ASA have forced pilots and ATC to hate each other and this shouldn't be the case - we are a team, ATC are not the police.
It's all about money.....
It’s partly about the money.
It’s mainly about airspace arrangements that are driven by perception and convenience rather than objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses.
There are RPT pilots in Australia who would prefer to fly in G than E. That’s got nothing to do with what’s going on in people’s pockets. It’s got everything to do with what’s going on between those pilot’s ears.
The languid ease with which hundreds of cubic kilometres of airspace can be locked up so as to cosset one ADF aircraft is a product of culture, not science or money.
I can recall flying with my son, then a PPL holder, in a Cherokee arrow from MIA to MEB about 20 years ago on a VFR day with a very strong northerly and a forecast of severe turbulence below 5000. Around Bendigo he wanted to start stepping down to take the western light aircraft lane. When I suggested we request a clearance to overfly MEL and MEN he was dubious because it was too hard. Anyway, he asked and 3 minutes later had a clearance. We still got a beating on the descent into MEB but only for a short time compared to an hour bashing about at 1500'. He had been taught to avoid controlled airspace like the plague because ATC didn't want bug smashers bothering them. You have to ask ATC "are you here for us or are we here for you"
Last edited by deja vu; 24th Sep 2019 at 01:49.
cubic kilometres of airspace can be locked up so as to cosset one ADF aircraft is a product of culture, not science or money
Yeah, but what would the most advanced civil and military aviation nation on the planet know about risk-based airspace arrangements.
I think it is an offence for a VFR aircraft to even file a flight plan that comes within 2 miles of controlled airspace. Given that and:
(a) CASA hates small airplanes and private pilots, and
(b) there are criminal penalties for contravening regulations, and
(c) CASA is known to be capricious, vindictive and vicious (ask Glen Buckley).
Why would any private pilot not minimise their use of controlled airspace?
It’s not so bad when one is exceedingly familiar with a region and knows the choke points(for example West Gate Bridge is now C above 1500ft.), but why would you try using controlled airspace in unfamiliar territory perhaps in deteriorating weather?
Can we see how this safety equation kills people?
Unforgiving airspace + unfamiliarity and lack of effective training + fear of prosecution + lack of alternative airports + confusing regulation capriciously enforced + deteriorating weather = recipe for accidents
(a) CASA hates small airplanes and private pilots, and
(b) there are criminal penalties for contravening regulations, and
(c) CASA is known to be capricious, vindictive and vicious (ask Glen Buckley).
Why would any private pilot not minimise their use of controlled airspace?
It’s not so bad when one is exceedingly familiar with a region and knows the choke points(for example West Gate Bridge is now C above 1500ft.), but why would you try using controlled airspace in unfamiliar territory perhaps in deteriorating weather?
Can we see how this safety equation kills people?
Unforgiving airspace + unfamiliarity and lack of effective training + fear of prosecution + lack of alternative airports + confusing regulation capriciously enforced + deteriorating weather = recipe for accidents