Mooney 2POB missing west of Coffs Harbour

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by Lead Balloon

Here’s the kind of attitude you’re up against: https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2018/ar201800058/

Class E in Australia has been designed (deliberately I assume) to have very little benefit to anyone.

[andrewr]

Originally Posted by iron_jayeh

i don't know the answer too the but does the US have echo below the start height of their instrument approaches?

My understanding is that most of the USA has class E down to either 1200' or 800' AGL. The idea is to provide ATC separation services to IFR aircraft, including during an instrument approach. If IFR separation is not required i.e. VMC, the aircraft can cancel IFR and proceed VFR.

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

Worked fine when I’ve used it. Unfortunately the RAA can’t use it without a full PPL, I think

Not correct. Any aircraft / pilot can access class E with a transponder and VHF radio.

[LeadSled]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

I have a suspicion that there are professional pilots who deeply resent having to share airspace and that they have a disproportionate voice in airspace planning, but I have no direct evidence.

Sunfish,
Correct, and part of that is that most of the pilots (FOIs etc) in CASA are members of the same union, AFAP, as a proportion of Australian (mostly) domestic pilots. Many of them have a huge chip on both their shoulders (balanced personality) about anything they associate with "septic tanks".

I have personally witnessed a then executive member of the AFAP state, with respect to E versus G:" I don't care if it is safer, we are not going to do what the f-----ing septics do".

That also explains why "I fly IFR" is a badge of rank in Australia, elevating you above the great VFR unwashed, variously called "weekend warriors" flying "bugsmashers" --- the contempt exhibited is palpable. The "regional" pilots who act as though they have right of way are very much in evidence, appalling behaviour by self-confessed "professionals".

That also explains, in large part, why the originally very successful PIFR has regressed, been made all too hard, completely defeating its original purpose.

Looking dispassionately at many of the roadblocks in Australian aviation (roadblock is appropriate, keeping people on the road) says a lot about a very unhealthy psychology..
Tootle pip!!

[aroa]

Decisions, decisions.
I still amazes me and many others no doubt, when faced with " lowering cloud and rising terrain" the classic scenario that is talked about ad nauseam...why, oh why do some people persist ?

Havent they had a few 'ring twitcher' events to learn from in the past.?

[LeadSled]

Originally Posted by aroa

Decisions, decisions.
I still amazes me and many others no doubt, when faced with " lowering cloud and rising terrain" the classic scenario that is talked about ad nauseam...why, oh why do some people persist ?

Havent they had a few 'ring twitcher' events to learn from in the past.?

aroa,
More afraid of CASA, getting a criminal record, and the bureaucracy than ???
Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by AndrewR

My understanding is that most of the USA has class E down to either 1200' or 800' AGL. The idea is to provide ATC separation services to IFR aircraft, including during an instrument approach. If IFR separation is not required i.e. VMC, the aircraft can cancel IFR and proceed VFR.

It is a pity that you and others don't appear to understand the fundamental problem with E airspace. That is, VFR do not know where the IFR is and IFR do not know where the VFR is. In effect, in seductively nice weather, some think we can all just look out the window and See and Avoid. But that's not how it works. It is impossible to effectively see and avoid when flying fast turboprops/jets. You won't see me and I won't see you. Dick Smith acknowledged the dangers of Class E when he implemented mandatory transponders for all aircraft in E in an attempt to mitigate this intractable issue.

[Rockwell112B]

Do you know what altitude they were travelling at through the whole track?

[andrewr]

Are pilots in the USA smarter? Better eyesight? Cleaner windows?

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

It is a pity that you and others don't appear to understand the fundamental problem with E airspace. That is, VFR do not know where the IFR is and IFR do not know where the VFR is. In effect, in seductively nice weather, some think we can all just look out the window and See and Avoid. But that's not how it works. It is impossible to effectively see and avoid when flying fast turboprops/jets. You won't see me and I won't see you. Dick Smith acknowledged the dangers of Class E when he implemented mandatory transponders for all aircraft in E in an attempt to mitigate this intractable issue.

I flew for approximately 8 hours in mostly class E over the weekend, above and in the flight levels and it was great. I was watching IFR traffic on the ADSB-in and ATC were advising me of traffic that may be an issue for me and likewise for them. I was only running mode C however they tagged my rego when I asked for a mode C check (hadn’t been used for a while). They even proactively called me up as I was heading towards Albury and they noticed that I didn’t have a plan in the system, so they asked if I wanted one and when I said yes, they already had a code ready.

Thumbs up ATC.

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by 0ttoL

ABC News is saying that the mine hunting boat has spotted some debris and that Police divers are now on the way to identify it.

Are you referring to the Huey?

[Aussie Bob]

Tragic and hard. But on the other points raised i think rather than always pass blame we sometimes need to be accountable for our decisons without blaming someone else..

Very true Extralight. Aviation, more than most other pursuits calls for a high degree of self responsibility. No ATC is ever going to send me anywhere perilous. EVER

surely part of the problem then. Where I fly every PPL student flight has a flight plan filed. Teach it properly during the training.

Flight notification is part of the RPL and PPL curriculum, this is not the demographic I am referring to. There is a considerable older pilot population who learnt back in the days of Full SAR.

[Dick Smith]

It is interesting how we seem to have such a lower percentage of instrument rated pilots than, say, the USA. The latest figures I have seen state that 16% of pilots in Australia have an instrument rating, while in the USA it is 65%.

I’m sure it is in relation to the extra cost and complexity to get an instrument rating here, and also the cost of keeping it current. I would imagine the percentage with instrument ratings is even lower now.

[giantkingsquid]

And also that on average the weather is better here.

[0ttoL]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

Are you referring to the Huey?

Apologies. Wrong thread.

[Piston_Broke]

Originally Posted by andrewr

Are pilots in the USA smarter? Better eyesight? Cleaner windows?

Far more extensive radar surveillance for ATC.

[Sunfish]

Originally Posted by Piston_Broke

Far more extensive radar surveillance for ATC.

We are talking the east coast, not the Simpson desert.

[LeadSled]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Dick Smith acknowledged the dangers of Class E when he implemented mandatory transponders for all aircraft in E in an attempt to mitigate this intractable issue.

Bloggsie,
You know, as well as I do, that the above statement is just plain wrong, and how the transponder mandate came about ---- an attempt to appease the AFAP, a political move to try and get airspace classification, modernisation and harmonisation moving.

Remember the AFAP "Technical" Director's statement at the time: "That perceptions of risk had to be mitigated, even if there was no demonstrated risk". To be read in conjunction with my previous post about perceptions of anti-US bias(indeed, anti non-"Australian" --- the only soldier in the battalion in step syndrome) by said person.

And--- the not unimportant FACT that E without mandatory transponder satisfied ICAO risk management criteria for E airspace --- and still does.

Just another example of the impossibility of reasoning with troglodytes and Luddites.

Don't try and re-write history!!
Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Yes Sleddee, some forward-thinker thought that it might just be a good idea for ATC to know where the VFR was as he/she/they wended their way through terminal airspace unannounced/uncontrolled, so allowing ATC to vector A380s around them. You can't take your horse and cart on the freeway...

[aroa]

Leadie yre right ....the criminal record is very easy to come by thanks to the AvPolis . True or not...just ask me.
And Dick ....re the IFR rating as a PPL of long standing, never got one due to initial costs and ongoing renewals, as its something that needs to be use all the time to have the head in gear.
Had a few 'exciting moments' ..twitch twitch, sweat, sweat in my travels and having heeded the lessons, so far so good.
I do realise that I'm still capable of doing something stupid with an aeroplane, sometimes when you see what others do its all too easy.