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Mooney 2POB missing west of Coffs Harbour

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Mooney 2POB missing west of Coffs Harbour

Old 21st Sep 2019, 09:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Originally Posted by wishiwasupthere View Post
Oh FFS, 2 people have died only 24 hours ago and already the usual suspects have hijacked another thread to drive their own agenda.
Wishi,
Much as it may displease you, I would suggest that, on the basis of probabilities, "Clearance not available, remain clear of controlled airspace" whether actual or perceived, was a contributing factor.
Who in their right mind would head out over the tiger country, when they could fly down the coast.
Let us hope there is a fair dinkum investigation.
Tootle pip!!

PS: And, by the way, Australian airspace arrangements are every bit as bad as Dick and just about anybody else with experience outside Australia will tell you. I feel sorry for the poor sods working for ASA, most of then know they could easily provide a better service, but they are bound by "the rools".
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 10:30
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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Don't assume

Last edited by iron_jayeh; 22nd Sep 2019 at 23:33.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 10:47
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Thanks LeadSled for a balanced and de-personalized response.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 12:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
Airservices have a ministerial directive to provide a terminal radar service in C over D. They ignore it at their peril.
Whilst not disagreeing that the provision of a terminal radar service at such locations such as Coffs Harbour, in C over D, who would pay for this service? User pays, I can't imagine that airlines operating to/from Coffs Harbour (Q-Link, Virgin?) would want to pay for it. I think they'd prefer a TWR service at Ballina and perhaps at few other places.

Introduce E over D and then the C over D argument evaporates.

Always, tragic accident none the less. RIP.
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 12:44
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Talking to one pilots widow, you can stick the ATSB up your backside, likewise CASA and AsA, given what she went through. If any of you deviates have flown into LAX even as a passenger, you will have seen a traffic density of airliners, military, business and GA aircraft happily sharing the same sky that AsA and RAAF won’t allow in Australia. I think it’s basically (a defamatory allegation removed), not by the controllers, but the fat and lazy managers.

Why the @3$# isn’t there a ten mile wide coastal VFR corridor, over suitable land and reasonable altitude, not tiger country, the full length of the east coast? You can stick Victor 1, “500ft and life Jackets” up your backside while you are at it.

It appears to me that airlines, CASA, RAAF and AsA regard small aircraft as “air pollution “.

Last edited by Sunfish; 21st Sep 2019 at 12:55.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 01:23
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
mcoats. Did you put in a VFR plan first?

Did you ask for a clearance above 5000í?
Yes because with OzRyunways/Avplan/NAIPS/THE ENTIRE INTERNET, it is so damn hard to put in a flight plan.

Really, I'm genuinely curious, short of just wanting your own way, what is your justification for wanting to be able to enter CTA without doing the smallest bit of preparation and a bit of courtesy to the guys in the tower?
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 01:47
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Really, I'm genuinely curious, short of just wanting your own way, what is your justification for wanting to be able to enter CTA without doing the smallest bit of preparation and a bit of courtesy to the guys in the tower?
Once again Junior you are using your own skills as a benchmark for judging others. Try a stint as a flight instructor and you will realise that quite a few lack your capability. In any event, a filed flight plan is not a requirement for VFR and I can't find courtesy to ASA staff mentioned in the AIP. In any event, the guys I have questioned in the local tower are ambivalent about filed flight plans from VFR pilots.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 03:08
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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Irrelevant

Last edited by iron_jayeh; 22nd Sep 2019 at 23:31.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 04:41
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mcoates View Post
I have been through Coffs Harbour control area at least 100 times, never had anything but polite and courteous controllers happy to do anything they could.
I've not transited nearly that many times, but have not always been able to do what I wanted without a wait (once ~15 minutes), even with the plan filed. Which is OK, but would be tempting for some to route around
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 05:58
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob View Post
Once again Junior you are using your own skills as a benchmark for judging others. Try a stint as a flight instructor and you will realise that quite a few lack your capability. In any event, a filed flight plan is not a requirement for VFR and I can't find courtesy to ASA staff mentioned in the AIP. In any event, the guys I have questioned in the local tower are ambivalent about filed flight plans from VFR pilots.
surely part of the problem then. Where I fly every PPL student flight has a flight plan filed. Teach it properly during the training.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 07:46
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Talking to one pilots widow, you can stick the ATSB up your backside, likewise CASA and AsA, given what she went through. If any of you deviates have flown into LAX even as a passenger, you will have seen a traffic density of airliners, military, business and GA aircraft happily sharing the same sky that AsA and RAAF wonít allow in Australia. I think itís basically (a defamatory allegation removed), not by the controllers, but the fat and lazy managers.

Why the @3$# isnít there a ten mile wide coastal VFR corridor, over suitable land and reasonable altitude, not tiger country, the full length of the east coast? You can stick Victor 1, ď500ft and life JacketsĒ up your backside while you are at it.

It appears to me that airlines, CASA, RAAF and AsA regard small aircraft as ďair pollution ď.
Don't very often agree with you Sunny, but I am with you on this one.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 08:28
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pbwhi0 View Post
Thanks LeadSled for a balanced and de-personalized response.
pbwhi0,
Occam's Razor!!
Interestingly, I am not clairvoyant, just stating the obvious.
Already, quite apart from my comment about probabilities, there is a very strong rumor about that a clearance through C airspace was requested and denied, with an instruction to call the tower..
That will all be recorded.
Even if there was a hellishly badly timed, say, mechanical, problem, they would have been better off over low ground/water.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 09:09
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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ATC's in this country are working under ridiculous liability constraints. Although covered by Vicarious Liability they are stringently trained on just what 'advice' they can and cannot give. If they can't give a clearance, they can't.

E over D. That's where your corridor is Sunny. Does it work at Avalon? From a VFR pilot's perspective it does, does it work for a Jetstar pilot? Does it work from a controlling point of view? Cultural change is the biggest issue with E over D.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 10:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Flight Radar showed a direct route all the way to the crash and a GS of 165 knots while descending below mountain tops immediately prior.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 11:38
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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VH-LFA;
Really, I'm genuinely curious, short of just wanting your own way, what is your justification for wanting to be able to enter CTA without doing the smallest bit of preparation and a bit of courtesy to the guys in the tower?
Its our country. Unless the Aborigines invented “controlled airspace” there is nothing sacred about it. Just change it. ...Or do we believe that RAAF Group Captain Blair Ponsonby Smythe and Sir Humphrey Appleby actually own the airspace and can tell us peasants what to do?

As Dick has, I think, pointed out, how many ordinary unprivileged pilots and their passengers have to die just to satisfy the RAAF ask for many hundreds of square miles of airspace to play in and the absurd liability fantasies of CASA and AsA?

How many dead this month due to rotten controlled airspace real estate rules? One mooney and one Iroquois? Six or seven people?’

And another thing...,,CASA and their lapdog, the ATSB, sunk the slipper into Angel Flight for far less reason. Where is the special report into East Coast transit airspace and procedures that force small aircraft into flying over water or mountains instead of along the coast with at least the possibility of a safe forced landing? More people have been killed by the current East Coast airspace rules than Angel Flight ever did.

Rant mode off.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 14:24
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Tragic and hard. But on the other points raised i think rather than always pass blame we sometimes need to be accountable for our decisons without blaming someone else.. Ive been flying for 30 years and in regards to flight plans..I am not gadget savvy at all. But with avplan and ozrunways it is far simpler than it has ever been to lodge a flight plan. It literally takes minutes. ATC has almost always been incredible helpful whenever they see a potential risk. I do agree with the raaf taking up way to much airspace when only a pocket is used..and I'm.ex raaf..It's ridiculous to activate a whole block of airspace for one returning c130.

Really sad accident. Could have been a simple mistake in reading lsalt or something.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 16:02
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
ATC's in this country are working under ridiculous liability constraints. Although covered by Vicarious Liability they are stringently trained on just what 'advice' they can and cannot give. If they can't give a clearance, they can't.

E over D. That's where your corridor is Sunny. Does it work at Avalon? From a VFR pilot's perspective it does, does it work for a Jetstar pilot? Does it work from a controlling point of view? Cultural change is the biggest issue with E over D.
Porter,
Well said, but!!

Where the change is most needed is in the mindset of one union, AFAP, who have opposed most every change or advance in the many years I have been around the business, not limited to airspace management.

Right now they are opposing limited amendments to the Civil Aviation Act 1988**, opposing legitimising at least partially, cost/benefit justification, and trying to bring some cost accountability to CASA and aviation regulation.

AIPA members happily fly in E airspace ( and the rest of the alphabet) every day, in areas where there are serious traffic numbers, not the occasional aircraft encountered most places in Australia.

Tootle pip!!

** Similar but far more extensive amendments were recommended in 1999 --- nobody could accuse CASA and Transport of rushing things.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 21:01
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Here’s the kind of attitude you’re up against: https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2018/ar201800058/

The reporter’s comments:
Overall, Class E airspace is quite a pointless concept but never so ridiculously applied as overhead a major destination between Class D and C airspace.
If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporter’s insights.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 21:43
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post

If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporterís insights.
i don't know the answer too the but does the US have echo below the start height of their instrument approaches?
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 21:52
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
ATC's in this country are working under ridiculous liability constraints. Although covered by Vicarious Liability they are stringently trained on just what 'advice' they can and cannot give. If they can't give a clearance, they can't.

E over D. That's where your corridor is Sunny. Does it work at Avalon? From a VFR pilot's perspective it does, does it work for a Jetstar pilot? Does it work from a controlling point of view? Cultural change is the biggest issue with E over D.
Worked fine when I’ve used it. Unfortunately the RAA can’t use it without a full PPL, I think.

Regarding my “air pollution” comment, I have only evidence of this in maritime situations - a number of ships pilots used to go berserk when confronted with a small vessel using shipping channels. One ranted on VHF about this, called them “pollution” (I heard it) was recorded, and eventually dismissed. I have a suspicion that there are professional pilots who deeply resent having to share airspace and that they have a disproportionate voice in airspace planning, but I have no direct evidence.
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