RFDS feeling effects of global pilot shortage
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Déjà Vu,
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.
What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?
I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.
However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.
Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.
What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?
I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.
However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.
Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.
well said Morno -
Déjà Vu,
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.
What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?
I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.
However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.
Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.
I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told.
What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent?
I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems.
However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours.
Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them.
So much back and forth on this debate and so much right on both sides.
As a pilot that's done both... I'll err on the side of saying the RFDS job is slightly less technically demanding.
(Perhaps just because you're left to do things your own way within the realm of SOPs)
The skills required, whilst very specialised, aren't beyond most pilots. Its just about exposure.
Conversely, airline ops aren't beyond most RFDS pilots or those of other backgrounds.
You don't go into the RFDS as an expert in the field. You learn as you go, just like anywhere else.
Retention though. This is key.
They need to pay somewhere between airline FO and airline Captain, which currently doesn't seem to be the case.
I find airline duties more demanding, the flying more demanding, etc., but we get a lot more days off and better pay to compensate.
The RFDS was more emotionally demanding, without a doubt. But also very, very rewarding.
But, the level of responsibility.
Id go back to the RFDS any day, but the pay cut is unswallowable, even as an airline FO.
As a pilot that's done both... I'll err on the side of saying the RFDS job is slightly less technically demanding.
(Perhaps just because you're left to do things your own way within the realm of SOPs)
The skills required, whilst very specialised, aren't beyond most pilots. Its just about exposure.
Conversely, airline ops aren't beyond most RFDS pilots or those of other backgrounds.
You don't go into the RFDS as an expert in the field. You learn as you go, just like anywhere else.
Retention though. This is key.
They need to pay somewhere between airline FO and airline Captain, which currently doesn't seem to be the case.
I find airline duties more demanding, the flying more demanding, etc., but we get a lot more days off and better pay to compensate.
The RFDS was more emotionally demanding, without a doubt. But also very, very rewarding.
But, the level of responsibility.
Id go back to the RFDS any day, but the pay cut is unswallowable, even as an airline FO.
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I see it as a trade off between $$ vs fulfilment (lifestyle). The answer is different for every person.
Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary).
With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country.
By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!).
An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$.
Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move...
I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need.
Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary).
With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country.
By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!).
An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$.
Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move...
I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need.
I see it as a trade off between $$ vs fulfilment (lifestyle). The answer is different for every person.
Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary).
With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country.
By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!).
An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$.
Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move...
I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need.
Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary).
With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country.
By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!).
An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$.
Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move...
I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.
So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.
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Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.
So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.
So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.
Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.
So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good.
So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect.
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AS a train driver I can endorse your philosophy. I gave up flying for a career 13 years ago and have never looked back. Suburban guys, particularly in Brisbane and Melbourne are quite well paid notwithstanding the roster.
Freight drivers - depending on company and depot - can earn well over $140K and if you go to one of the Pilbara operators you can take home north of $200K easily, particularly if you are employed as a residential driver there, though FIFO employees are on much less. I now work a 2 week on, 4 week off roster and gross around $110K but that was my choice to go part-time. On a 2 on, 2 off FIFO roster, that was around $165K give or take, though a good mate has just left for another company and is on $210K as a casual Driver.
We still have Cat1 medicals to comply with, though that is essentially the equivalent of an aviation Class 1, with a few things omitted, and I know of quite a few guys who have struggled to pass that with the more stringent criteria imposed recently, mostly stress testing or sleep related. To earn the sort of coin though, you are up at all hours, can have your shift changed at the drop of a hat +2 hours or -4 hours, many depots operate "blank line" or "pencil" rosters, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't find out what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today, though the Suburban drivers have a fixed roster and can swap jobs/days with other volunteers to suit their own needs.
Knowing what I know now would I ever go back to flying as a career? RFDS, perhaps, but I don't have the experience to qualify, but beyond that, not a bloody chance... I fly for fun now, when I want, where I want and I don't have to deal with security going to work every shift...
Freight drivers - depending on company and depot - can earn well over $140K and if you go to one of the Pilbara operators you can take home north of $200K easily, particularly if you are employed as a residential driver there, though FIFO employees are on much less. I now work a 2 week on, 4 week off roster and gross around $110K but that was my choice to go part-time. On a 2 on, 2 off FIFO roster, that was around $165K give or take, though a good mate has just left for another company and is on $210K as a casual Driver.
We still have Cat1 medicals to comply with, though that is essentially the equivalent of an aviation Class 1, with a few things omitted, and I know of quite a few guys who have struggled to pass that with the more stringent criteria imposed recently, mostly stress testing or sleep related. To earn the sort of coin though, you are up at all hours, can have your shift changed at the drop of a hat +2 hours or -4 hours, many depots operate "blank line" or "pencil" rosters, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't find out what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today, though the Suburban drivers have a fixed roster and can swap jobs/days with other volunteers to suit their own needs.
Knowing what I know now would I ever go back to flying as a career? RFDS, perhaps, but I don't have the experience to qualify, but beyond that, not a bloody chance... I fly for fun now, when I want, where I want and I don't have to deal with security going to work every shift...
The easiest way is to look on Seek using the keyword "Locomotive". Entry-level drivers jobs are usually titled "Trainee Locomotive Driver" or occasionally "Trainee Train Driver", but using the more general Locomotive means you'll catch qualified jobs as well and can tweak your resume to show what you'll eventually be doing. IF you're in Auckland, TransDev is Currently advertising for Trainee's for their 2020 schools but I think they're the suburban trains. If you do come across one that you'll apply for, sell your mechanical aptitude, understanding of physics & maths - inertia/gearing/levers etc, ability to work as part of a team, but also independently as needed, a good communicator to liase with Train Control & Signallers, etc.
Off the top of my head, once you've done your training in the classroom and are qualified to go out as a Driver's Assistant/Fireman/Observer/Second Person, you should be on around $60K, depending on the company. Classroom training will be around 3-4 weeks depending on company and another week or two to qualify as a DA. Qualified driver's, depending on company and depot, will be on between $110-190K. To get qualified as a Driver, from off the street, will take 12-24 months depending on company needs. The blokes that do the "relay working" (sleeping in a crew car as the train travels with the 2nd crew on the loco) out of Adelaide to Perth & Darwin are at the upper end of that salary range. Queensland Coal Driver's around the middle and general freight are in the bottom third or so - but overtime can boost that significantly. Time spent away from home adds up too with various allowances.
A word of warning: There is shiftwork, then there is railway shiftwork. It isn't "Oh, I've got 0400's all next week". Trains run early, late or are cancelled altogether. Fatigue can be a huge factor depending how far you have to drive for work and if you don't make an conscious effort to keep fit, you will find yourself struggling to pass the medicals as you age, it is a very sedentary job. That being said, I've been doing it for 14 years and I wouldn't do anything else - flying included.
Off the top of my head, once you've done your training in the classroom and are qualified to go out as a Driver's Assistant/Fireman/Observer/Second Person, you should be on around $60K, depending on the company. Classroom training will be around 3-4 weeks depending on company and another week or two to qualify as a DA. Qualified driver's, depending on company and depot, will be on between $110-190K. To get qualified as a Driver, from off the street, will take 12-24 months depending on company needs. The blokes that do the "relay working" (sleeping in a crew car as the train travels with the 2nd crew on the loco) out of Adelaide to Perth & Darwin are at the upper end of that salary range. Queensland Coal Driver's around the middle and general freight are in the bottom third or so - but overtime can boost that significantly. Time spent away from home adds up too with various allowances.
A word of warning: There is shiftwork, then there is railway shiftwork. It isn't "Oh, I've got 0400's all next week". Trains run early, late or are cancelled altogether. Fatigue can be a huge factor depending how far you have to drive for work and if you don't make an conscious effort to keep fit, you will find yourself struggling to pass the medicals as you age, it is a very sedentary job. That being said, I've been doing it for 14 years and I wouldn't do anything else - flying included.
Are you able to fly for an airline like Cobham for example or QLink and do part time flying for the RFDS as well? If so what would a part time RFDS pilot be paid approximately?
Even if someone is on leave without pay, I highly doubt RFDS would hire them for they will only disappear when things improve. If they were a regular line pilot absolutely not.
Got to the backyard and play while the grown ups talk.
Last edited by Climb150; 14th Feb 2021 at 17:52.
Do not know where you folks are getting your info but here is the actual RFDS Qld numbers
Aeromedical Pilot: Base Rate effective 1 July 2018 $119,946.52
increases per year x WPI to and including 2021
Retention Tiers - In addition to the Role Base Rate applicable to the Employee's classification, the Employee will receive the Retention Loading for completion of 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 years' Continuous Service with the Employer, as set out in the table below:
2 years 4%
4 years 11%
6 years 12%
8 years 13%
10 years 14%
Additional allowances for Remote Area $10k gratuity, ~$10k accommodation, Refuelling allowance ca $900, LoL $2K, and vehicle allowances. Superannuation at 12.5%, 6 weeks annual leave, personal leave, study leave, URTI leave, annual medical expenses, Salary Packaging to GUV $30K, FRMS approved roster so basically 2 days, 1-2 nights, Grey day and 4 days off.
Far above the Award and actually pretty good on any terms of comparison.
Aeromedical Pilot: Base Rate effective 1 July 2018 $119,946.52
increases per year x WPI to and including 2021
Retention Tiers - In addition to the Role Base Rate applicable to the Employee's classification, the Employee will receive the Retention Loading for completion of 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 years' Continuous Service with the Employer, as set out in the table below:
2 years 4%
4 years 11%
6 years 12%
8 years 13%
10 years 14%
Additional allowances for Remote Area $10k gratuity, ~$10k accommodation, Refuelling allowance ca $900, LoL $2K, and vehicle allowances. Superannuation at 12.5%, 6 weeks annual leave, personal leave, study leave, URTI leave, annual medical expenses, Salary Packaging to GUV $30K, FRMS approved roster so basically 2 days, 1-2 nights, Grey day and 4 days off.
Far above the Award and actually pretty good on any terms of comparison.
Last edited by Al Fentanyl; 15th Feb 2021 at 06:32.
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To navigate toward the Thread title a little, I'm not sure if they're indeed feeling the pinch, no I've not got the experience of a 20 year captain or even a 10 year Captain, but I meet all their requirements and some and still never received any sort of response.
The RFDS in my eyes has always been the pinnacle of flying. I delved very lightly in the airline world but most of my time is GA and I've heard of them interviewing Instructors with no charter background- which I find both infuriating and sad- hopefully not true.
They've recently just put up a relieving pilots add based in WA and hopefully their, "pilot Shortage" will figure it's self out.
Stay safe and happy guys!
The RFDS in my eyes has always been the pinnacle of flying. I delved very lightly in the airline world but most of my time is GA and I've heard of them interviewing Instructors with no charter background- which I find both infuriating and sad- hopefully not true.
They've recently just put up a relieving pilots add based in WA and hopefully their, "pilot Shortage" will figure it's self out.
Stay safe and happy guys!
Any advice from current or recently left RFDS crew regarding recruitment, conditions and lifestyle at WA, Central or Qld sections? There are job ads every other week!!
Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well?
Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery.
Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well?
Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery.
Any advice from current or recently left RFDS crew regarding recruitment, conditions and lifestyle at WA, Central or Qld sections? There are job ads every other week!!
Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well?
Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery.
Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well?
Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery.
Western Ops definitely the better of the PC12 sections. Stronger EBA, better pay, more comprehensive service, all NG fleet (central still with some classics). Some really good people at the top and in training and checking. Not perfect but as solid as it gets in GA. Semi-closed tender for their contracts with the state government - they don't have Pelair breathing down their neck like Victorian and South Eastern sections had/still have. Western also does almost all the medical component in house - doctors/nurses/ops team. Makes for a pretty good atmosphere and tight teams on the bases.
Regional base to start, expect Meeka, Hedland or Kal. Each base has its own shortcomings. Broome in 1-2 years. Jandakot in 2-3 years. Shorter if you're lucky, some people landing Jandakot within a year. Rosters can be hard when the bases are understaffed, but you'll do 18-20 shifts in 28 days, nearly all standby from home. Commonly morning/morning/afternoon/afternoon/night/night/grey day/ then RDO x 3. 700ish hours per year in the logbook, the FRMS caps you at 750. Hours are harder than the numbers make it sound, most guys are cooked at 750. Big duty days after decent standby periods, and lots of back of the clock.
PC24 within 3-4 years if you really want it, are competent and willing to go back to Broome. Seems like they want to give it to the younger and keener players, there's a little bit of seniority but just being there for a while doesn't guarentee you anything. 2 year bond. PC24 shifts/rosters a bit rough - lots of Broome - Perth return at unsociable hours. Ignore what the propaganda from Central section tells you about the PC24 - in WA it is a sealed surfaces only machine.
Westops will take you with 1500 of the right hours (or even slightly less). IFR, night, turbine, Part 135 - if you tick these boxes and are good with people you'll get a good look in. The job really can't be done with much less than 1500 hours and a decent footing on IFR - the section is set up so every base/crew does aeromed including high acuity primaries. I think my second or third callout after check to line was a nasty medevac in **** conditions, I had barely more than 1500 hours and was ****ting bricks even after 80 hours of line supervision prior to check. I remember getting told in week one that one in three hires don't get through to line check - saw plenty of people scrubbed for not cutting the mustard.
Great memories though. If you've been offered Westops I'd say go for it, you won't regret it.
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