The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Bell ditching off Newcastle

Old 9th Sep 2019, 04:18
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,150
Wheels down, on your first post you say:

“Was on Base for 30 at Williamtown but appeared to have positioned for a ditching just off the sand dunes.”
Wheels down, have you had some information on this from air traffic control or are you just surmising it? I notice that the aircraft started to turn left at the normal holding point at Anna Bay.

Can anyone verify the clearance details that were provided by Willy ATC?
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 06:51
  #42 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 596
Dick I’m still a tad confused if they were going to NTL or not. The flight info I saw at the time of posting which was not long after the event, was it was stopping in NTL, this info appears to be gone from online sites. Others are saying it wasn’t stopping. Some are saying it was. Then came reports that they were speaking to the Tower about ditching. This information is somewhat vague and unconfirmed. I understand the media are not getting answers to these basic communication questions out of the Air Force.

The tracking somewhat navigating away from the dunes for a planned ditching lined up with that ditching statement but it appears more likely a loss of control in gusty, wet and miserable IFR conditions I think. Pilot inexperience in such conditions? Well it certainly has not flown much this year.
wheels_down is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 09:28
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,032
I don't believe for a second there would have been any intention to turn away from land and ditch the helicopter at sea at night in bad weather, especially a helicopter not fitted with emergency flotation, nor probably equipped with life rafts or life jackets. The survivability of that scenario is zero.
gulliBell is online now  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 10:35
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,179
How far off-shore was it found?

Seems amazing that a SAR aircraft spotted the tail-rotor sinking!

Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 10:50
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,032
Actually, if the tail rotor had separated from the drive train, they tend to float for quite some time.
gulliBell is online now  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 14:28
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Cairns FNQ
Age: 67
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
How far off-shore was it found?


cowl flaps is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 23:14
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Aus
Age: 27
Posts: 297
Surprise surprise that a certain someone is here with a torch and pitchfork to blame the RAAF.
junior.VH-LFA is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 23:31
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Aus
Posts: 76
BOM data from Nobbys Head showed 91kmh (49kt) gusts at 2022 EST - just 2 hours after the aircraft disappeared.

What was the wind at 1815?
MagnumPI is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2019, 23:46
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Vic
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
Surprise surprise that a certain someone is here with a torch and pitchfork to blame the RAAF.
He's not the only one, have you been through willy much in a GA aircraft Junior?
Cedrik is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 00:37
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,150
Junior. No surprise. Just commonsense.

It is is well known that the RAAF Willy ATCs are often forced to keep VFR aircraft holding at Anna Bay.

This is primarily caused by 1950s procedures that have never been updated!

I wonder why the secrecy about the radio calls?
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 01:28
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,032
I'm sure Willy ATC wouldn't hold any civil aircraft that had declared an emergency, especially if reports of discussing ditching are true.
gulliBell is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 03:08
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Aus
Age: 27
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
Junior. No surprise. Just commonsense.

It is is well known that the RAAF Willy ATCs are often forced to keep VFR aircraft holding at Anna Bay.

This is primarily caused by 1950s procedures that have never been updated!

I wonder why the secrecy about the radio calls?
Hypothetically, lets assume that the aircraft was required to hold due ATC, please Dick enlighten me, how that could cause an aircraft to crash or how that would even relate to the aircraft's loss. You know as well as anyone that had an emergency been declared, there would have been ZERO requirement to hold. Is it not a reasonable expectation that if you're flying and haven't declared that you're anything other than operations normal that you should be able to comply with ATC restrictions/requirements? If you'd been asked to hold and had an abnormal situation, what would you have done? Comply with the clearance, or do the A part of ANCA?

For interests sake, at 1815L at Willy there would have been zero fast jet movements. If there was a delay it would likely have been caused by RPT traffic.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Thoughts are with the pilot and pax, whatever it was it sounds like it wasn't a lot of fun.
junior.VH-LFA is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 04:07
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 2,706
The delay is not ‘caused’ by aircraft inbound to or outbound from Willy, military or otherwise.

The delay is caused by 1950s procedures that still treat an aircraft miles away from the extended centreline of the Willy runway, at 500’ AGL, as being a material risk to aircraft inbound to or outbound from Willy (military or otherwise).

Someone give me the probabilities of an aircraft inbound or outbound from Willy colliding with an aircraft at 500’ over Stockton Beach.

Hopefully someone will pipe up and say: “Even if it’s a vanishingly remote risk, it can be mitigated by making people hold over 10 nautical miles away”, thus proving the point.

Last edited by Lead Balloon; 10th Sep 2019 at 04:44.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 04:26
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Vic
Posts: 7
I think some people might be reluctant to declare an emergency for fear of the wrath of CASA and the inevitable following non compliance and enforcement action.
Sad but just look at the Glen Buckley thread to see what people fear.
Cedrik is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 07:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,150
If the clearance limit was Anna Bay the pilot would have most likely had the lights of Newcastle ahead when flying south.
A left turn out over the ocean to hold would result in no visible horizon while in the turn!
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 08:38
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Aus
Age: 27
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
If the clearance limit was Anna Bay the pilot would have most likely had the lights of Newcastle ahead when flying south.
A left turn out over the ocean to hold would result in no visible horizon while in the turn!




Then declare a pan or declare those intentions due to WX. Don't inadvertently fly into IMC for the sake of not breaching a clearance. ATC, even the RAAF ones, exist to facilitate you and keep you safe. If that was a concern the pilot had, why not say that? ATC is not responsible for knowing when you've reached your limit to operate the aircraft in the category you're flying under. That's your job as the pilot. All they can do is apply the rules they have with the category you've agreed to fly under.

None of this is to say the way the airspace is managed is perfect, I don't think anyone thinks it is, I note the current AIC SUP reference WLM's airspace (https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...up/a19-h40.pdf). But what you're doing right now is drawing a massive bow, and pre emptively laying blame at people who likely had nothing to do with the tragedy that took place here.

And I have flown through WLM in a GA single, it was a total pain in the ass. I agree it’s not done well, I just don’t think it’s relevant to what’s occurred here.

Last edited by junior.VH-LFA; 10th Sep 2019 at 09:05.
junior.VH-LFA is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:03
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 2,706
It’s not about the people implementing 1950s procedures.

It’s about the people in this Galapagos who insist that the 1950s procedures are justified.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 12:13
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 2,107
I heard and saw this aircraft fly over my house early Friday, heading south. It was so noisy I went outside for a look. I remember thinking "Who still flies an olive drab Huey?" Sadly, now I know.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 12:28
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,032
No mistaking that beautiful sound, on a good day you'll hear him coming 10 miles out. But once he's past overhead the beautiful sound won't last long.
gulliBell is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2019, 23:39
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
Junior. No surprise. Just commonsense.

It is is well known that the RAAF Willy ATCs are often forced to keep VFR aircraft holding at Anna Bay.
If Willy ATC had required UVC to hold at Anna Bay why was he turning left? I was taught that right turns were standard for holding patterns unless directed otherwise. Common sense would dictate that if he was required to hold he would have been turning right, wouldn't it?
MickG0105 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.