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Aircraft down at Braidwood, NSW

Old 6th Aug 2019, 06:11
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Unhappy Aircraft down at Braidwood, NSW

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...=statenews_nsw

...not good.
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 06:39
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ATSB already have a report
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2019-040/
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 07:04
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I used to own a Liberty. They are very simple, benign and forgiving. The newspaper witness reports say that it circled overhead and nosedived and that the pilot and a passenger flew down the night before, presumably to pick up the aircraft. Only some of them have glass cockpit which was an add-on, so it might be hard to find out exactly what happened.
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 10:02
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Does the Liberty type have a record of nasty stall/spin characteristics, or am I misremembering?
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 10:29
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 10:44
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Originally Posted by kaz3g
That report is more open ended than an empty toilet roll.

The Liberty XL2 is an FAR Part 23 certified aircraft. You’d have to do something pretty silly to come unstuck. It’s a very stable IFR training platform.


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Old 6th Aug 2019, 12:40
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That report is more open ended than an empty toilet roll.
....and that’s being generous.

What a pointless vacuous waste of space.

The only safety message is that they communicated effectively during the incident??.What? What pray tell me is the point of that nugget of information useful for? Where’s the description of the system, the operatorks thoughts on how it was trimmed incorrectly? A pilot on same type will learn nothing, nada, zip, el zilcho from that report. Why bother ATSB, why bother.

[/rant]

Back on topic, RIP.
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 14:59
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Regardless of the cause, if confronted with an ever increasing uncommanded extreme nose high attitude, an immediate roll up to 60 degrees angle of bank to the nearest horizon to get the nose to drop, buys you time to sort out the problem. This applies to most types of aircraft from jets to lighties. This manoeuvre should be taught at the ab-initio phase of training and can be a life saver.
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 22:36
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Originally Posted by Centaurus
Regardless of the cause, if confronted with an ever increasing uncommanded extreme nose high attitude, an immediate roll up to 60 degrees angle of bank to the nearest horizon to get the nose to drop, buys you time to sort out the problem. This applies to most types of aircraft from jets to lighties. This manoeuvre should be taught at the ab-initio phase of training and can be a life saver.
That's very true 'Centy'', have always been taught that maneuverer in a jet at Sim time, few lighty drivers would have the peace of mind to roll an A/C into a steep bank to give them thinking time.
I hope they can get to the bottom of this tragic event, there has to be some purpose to the guys loss of life so maybe others can learn. RIP
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 23:38
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Did those criticising the report note this to the right of the investigation number
Status: Active
Phase: Evidence collection
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Old 6th Aug 2019, 23:42
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Originally Posted by topdrop
Did those criticising the report note this to the right of the investigation number
Status: Active
Phase: Evidence collection
yes. I was referring to the 2015 report linked above
Aviation Occurrence Investigation AO-2015-125
Final – 28 January 2016
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Old 7th Aug 2019, 07:12
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Sounds like the Liberty has a pitch trim problem, or else the ATSB report is BS and some other stupidity occurred.
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Old 7th Aug 2019, 09:16
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
Sounds like the Liberty has a pitch trim problem, or else the ATSB report is BS and some other stupidity occurred.
The report doesn’t say that it has an issue, nor did the engineer that inspected it.
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Old 7th Aug 2019, 12:29
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Does that mean then that some other stupidity occurred?
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Old 12th Aug 2019, 01:57
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Devil Aircraft down at Braidwood NSW

Yes that previous Liberty crash at Camden was my aircraft and it was put down into a paddock from off base leg at Camden. It was definitely an inadvertent lean on the electric trim. I checked the trim position straight after and it was on full nose up trim.(there was nothing wrong with the aircraft).
Reference the current accident ... we lost a bank run Aerostar year’s ago stalled tightening the turn onto final. On giving Aerostar Endorsements I get a clearance up to 8000 ft over Richmond and tell the student at 148 kts to roll into a steep turn and pull back to the stall and it will suddenly (within a second) flick upside down and go verticall and it usually then takes him several thousand feet to pull out. they will then usually say I didn’t know an aeroplane would do that no one has ever shown that to me before.
Very few instructors I speak to have ever experienced stall off a steep turn from off level flight, much less taught it.
Whenever you hear of a sudden wing drop followed by a vertical dive into the ground from a low level turn you can be certain what caused it.

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Old 12th Aug 2019, 12:01
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Originally Posted by Aerodiamond
On giving Aerostar Endorsements I get a clearance up to 8000 ft over Richmond and tell the student at 148 kts to roll into a steep turn and pull back to the stall and it will suddenly (within a second) flick upside down and go verticall and it usually then takes him several thousand feet to pull out. they will then usually say I didn’t know an aeroplane would do that no one has ever shown that to me before.
Wow!.........
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Old 12th Aug 2019, 15:40
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tell the student at 148 kts to roll into a steep turn and pull back to the stall and it will suddenly (within a second) flick upside down and go vertical and it usually then takes him several thousand feet to pull out
As Sir Humphrey of Yes Minister would say with a suitably raised eyebrow "A courageous decision, Minister"
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Old 12th Aug 2019, 21:11
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I think that's what they call a "pro-gamer move"
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Old 12th Aug 2019, 21:14
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Stalling the aircraft and observing the behaviour of the incipient spin from level, climbing and descending turns (including from approach config) and steep turns is commonly taught in flight schools....isn't it?
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Old 12th Aug 2019, 21:24
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Not any more.
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