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PIC Question

Old 7th Jul 2019, 10:41
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PIC Question

Hi all, I did a flight test just over a week ago and filling in my log book now.

I forgot to ask the testing officer if I can log the flight as PIC.

Would anyone know if I can or the ATO is PIC.

Thanks.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 10:44
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Current ruling is that it's PIC if you passed, but ICUS if fail or incomplete.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 10:46
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Thats awesome well I did pass. I couldn't find the regs on where it stands.

So I guess I log it as PIC time
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 10:46
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Flight Examiner (not ATO’s anymore) is PIC. Absolute. They have full discretion and authority over the flight. Think initial instrument rating. You can’t log command time if you don’t have a rating.

DrPixie no offence, but never seen a rule relating to how you log time based on passing or failing. Quote one and I’ll happily retract.

CASR 61.A2
61.080 Definition of flight time as pilot for Part 61
A person’s flight time as a pilot is:
(a) the duration of the following flights:
(iv) if the person is a flight examiner—a flight during which the person exercises the privileges of his or her flight examiner rating
Only one person can log PIC time, and that’s the FE.

61.095 Definition of flight time as pilot in command under supervision for Part 61
(1) A person’s flight time as pilot in command under supervision is the duration of a flight if:
(a) the person holds a pilot licence; and
(b) the person performs all the duties of the pilot in command for the flight;
and
(c) subregulation (2) or (3) applies to the flight.
(2) For paragraph (1)(c), this subregulation applies to the flight if:
(a) the flight is conducted by an operator that has training and checking
responsibilities; and
(b) the pilot in command of the flight is authorised by the operator or the operator’s Part 142 operator to conduct the supervision of the person.
(3) For paragraph (1)(c), this subregulation applies to the flight if:
(a) the person is supervised by a flight instructor or flight examiner; and (b) the person is not receiving flight training.

Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 7th Jul 2019 at 11:35.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 10:50
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Originally Posted by MakeItHappenCaptain View Post
Flight Examiner (not ATOís anymore) is PIC. Absolute. They have full discretion and authority over the flight. Think initial instrument rating. You canít log command time if you donít have a rating. Only exception for example might be if your instrument rating was renewed before it lapsed, you could log ICUS.
Ok no worries. It makes sense. I guess a BFR you can log PIC but going off what you mention a flight test you don't have the rating/licence yet
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 10:55
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Interesting. Reading through my CASA portal. It says on my RPL & PPL flight tests I was PIC. Thats conflicting.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 11:29
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There are a lot of ill informed furphies and just plain old wives tales out there. Just remember one person has to be in charge and that’s the FE. They can exercise authority at any time.
ps. You can’t log ICUS for an RPL because you don’t hold a pilot license until after the test when CASA sends it out to you.
If you’re told anything else, ask for a reference, such as I gave. No misinterpretations then.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 11:36
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Originally Posted by radiodude View Post
Ok no worries. It makes sense. I guess a BFR you can log PIC but going off what you mention a flight test you don't have the rating/licence yet
The instructor is the PIC during a flight review. Read the relevant CAAP.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 12:29
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This forum reminds me of hanging around an aero club they defiantly should change the word the first P stands for.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 12:30
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Originally Posted by drpixie View Post
Current ruling is that it's PIC if you passed, but ICUS if fail or incomplete.

LOL. ďI failed my RPL but Iíll be logging the 1.5 ICUS..Ē
Seriously? How pathetic.
Start filling your logbook out like that and the industry, and prospective employers will make assumptions of you and your character pretty quickly.
And seriously people.. stop saying things like BFR and ATO. Geezz...
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 13:40
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Originally Posted by radiodude View Post
Hi all, I did a flight test just over a week ago and filling in my log book now.

I forgot to ask the testing officer if I can log the flight as PIC.

Would anyone know if I can or the ATO is PIC.

Thanks.
how can you log PIC? What would the ďATOĒ log?
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 00:40
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Originally Posted by MakeItHappenCaptain View Post
Flight Examiner (not ATOís anymore) is PIC.
I didn't realise we were after consistency

I agree 100% with you about the legal and practical situation - the examiner or instructor is in command of the flight and can override any decision/action/inaction of the candidate. And my quick search of casa.gov.au and the regs finds nothing contrarey to that. However CASA FOIs in their convoluted inconsistency have told many FEs and schools that successful licence tests may be logged as PIC - presumably of the basis that the FE must have done nothing because if they did anything then it should have been a fail! (But no, I don't have that in writing.)

So Radiodude, check with the examiner or your chief pilot / HOO.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 00:47
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Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post
The instructor is the PIC during a flight review. Read the relevant CAAP.
Not according to that reference MakeItHappenCaptain posted. A review (no instruction) is simply that, a review. So the person being reviewed is PIC. If things do not go well and instruction is required then the Reviewer can say "My Aircraft" and take over thus becoming PIC.

On a safety point, if you ever fly with another pilot, being a friend, Instructor for an AFR or an Examiner ALWAYS determine before flying EXACTLY who will be Pilot In Command, because if things turn nasty for whatever reason, confusion as to who is flying the aircraft can ultimately lead to disaster.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 01:24
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From CASR 61.095:

I understand that someone would be logging their flight test under PICUS time (whatever that means) provided that they already hold a pilot licence.
The same applies for a BFR.

I have never seen any reference suggesting that a pass in a flight test allows one to log under command time though.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 01:30
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Reading through my CASA portal
Where exactly do you see that? I can't see any PIC column in the self service app.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 01:45
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But note that the phrase “pilot under command under supervision” is also defined for the purposes of Part 61. So when you’re trying to interpret 61.095 you have to refer to the definition of “pilot under command under supervision”. (I say “trying”, because I’ve given up. I just go with whatever folklore prevails at the time.)

If I undergo a flight review as a private pilot in my own aircraft, I don’t “authorise” the ATO or FE, or whatever they are called this week, to do anything.

And I’m always fascinated by the paradox of “performing all of the duties of” PIC at the same time as being “under supervision”. If I am in fact PIC I am in charge and nobody is supervising and nobody has authority to intervene to override my decisions and activities. If somebody with authority to intervene and override my decisions and activities is on board, it follows that I’m not in charge and cannot be performing all of the duties of PIC.

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Old 8th Jul 2019, 02:49
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[QUOTE=Lead Balloon;10512536]


If I undergo a flight review as a private pilot in my own aircraft, I don’t “authorise” the ATO or FE, or whatever they are called this week, to do anything....
.... If I am in fact PIC I am in charge and nobody is supervising and nobody has authority to intervene to override my decisions and activities..../QUOTE]

Actually, you do authorise the examiner as PIC, and that person does have authority to over ride decisions etc. You acknowledge this when you accept the briefing, which should always include the standard hand-over/ take-over mantra required in any flight test.
If the examiner does not include that in the briefing, time to dust off the FEH.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 03:04
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As it is, from CASR:
pilot in command under supervision means a pilot, other than a student pilot, who performs the
duties and functions of the pilot in command of an aircraft under the supervision of a pilot who
is authorised by the operator of the aircraft to conduct the supervision.
I see no contradiction of 61.095 here: "other than a student pilot" is compatible with 61.095 (1) (a), i.e. the person holds a pilot licence.
In fact, I find the CASR rather clear (in this context, that is). It's CAAP 5.81-1(1) that I find rather confusing when it comes to logging of flight time for BFR.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 03:06
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[Y]ou do authorise the examiner as PIC.
Are you saying that I, as PIC, am authorising the FE to be PIC? There mere articulation of the concept highlights the paradox.

I’ve always treated ICUS as available only to AOC holders in relation to pilots who fly under the authority of the AOC. In those circumstances the AOC holder does have statutory authority to authorise pilots to be PICs of aircraft operating under the AOC. In other words, it’s neither the ‘PIC’ nor the ATO/FE that’s deciding who’s ‘in charge’ - it’s “the operator” (to use the words of the definition of “pilot in command under supervision” in Part 61).

(Why read CAAPs? That way lies madness. A CAAP is just the strong opinion of someone in CASA as to how that person thinks the law should work. The law determines how the law actually works.)
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 06:25
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I love the confusion here, CASA must shake their heads ! Why do they have ICUS in a log book anyway? (You are in CMD making all the decisions but are under supervision, doesn't get simper than that!)For this very reason! No biggy just log ICUS, you should be proud of every minute you log!:-)
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