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Light aircraft crash Leigh Creek

Old 10th Jul 2019, 00:34
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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I see the Coroners report that I referred to has quickly been removed. I can understand why that would not want to be out for ppruners if you were involved in it in any way.
Was written by the coroner not a journalist.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 00:44
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
With all due respect Leadsled, you’re disagreeing with the largest and most successful importer of LSA aircraft into this country, importing the highest number of aircraft types, along with building aircraft. He also holds exclusive distributorships across the USA and many other countries for a large range of aitrcraft. You can confidently know he’s telling it as it is !
Squawk7700,
That being the case, the views he has expressed, or the way he has expressed them, is all the more surprising to me.
Based on experience, I have greater faith in the structural durability and the in-flight behavior of said aircraft, than quite a number of imports. Particularly the low speed handling. And I have seen a couple of structural shockers amongst LSA.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 02:08
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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A bit said all around really. Two die in an aircraft accident and the discussion has degenerated into an argument about who knows more about the certification of LSA.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 02:31
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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The intent of my comments was not to incite debate about anything other than the continual comments from some segments that their aircraft is the strongest in the world, "if I was going to crash it is going to be the most survivable etc."

The only thing that wins in an accident is gravity, there is no getting around this any way whatsoever. In the case of this accident it is pointless saying it is the strongest aircraft ever built because gravity proved otherwise. It just doesn't add any value to the conversation or to the readers experience.

I have intentionally not entered into the debate about standards and certifications because again it adds no value and it only makes you a target for some keyboard warrior who knows more than you do.

To summarise my intentions about making comment, the accident is truly a great loss, I was speaking to people yesterday at the airport who knew the pilot quite well and nothing about this accident gels on their experience about him and his flying decisions. He was locally well respected, very experienced and current.

To look at photos of a crumpled wreck, and then start talking about how it is the strongest plane ever built do nothing for the conversation, gravity won this and nearly every other battle !
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 06:56
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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It appears from the pics in Sport Pilot - October 2018 that this particular Brumby 610 did not have landing lights, nav lights or strobes/beacons fitted. Neither was it legally or operationally required to. The 'green' light which a ground observer claimed to see from this aircraft may well have been off the EFIS or GPS screens during a turn. These screens can have the backlighting pilot adjusted for any light situation. Some EFIS and GPS are not NVMC approved, regardless of how great they look.

My identical model 610 is fitted with a large LED landing light fitted to the nosewheel strut, which is specifically for in circuit / training area visibility. We also have top and bottom fuselage red LED lights for the same reason and for the taxying part of each flight. All lights are ON from go to whoa.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 07:42
  #86 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by poteroo View Post
It appears from the pics in Sport Pilot - October 2018 that this particular Brumby 610 did not have landing lights, nav lights or strobes/beacons fitted. Neither was it legally or operationally required to. The 'green' light which a ground observer claimed to see from this aircraft may well have been off the EFIS or GPS screens during a turn. These screens can have the backlighting pilot adjusted for any light situation. Some EFIS and GPS are not NVMC approved, regardless of how great they look.

My identical model 610 is fitted with a large LED landing light fitted to the nosewheel strut, which is specifically for in circuit / training area visibility. We also have top and bottom fuselage red LED lights for the same reason and for the taxying part of each flight. All lights are ON from go to whoa.
Aircraft definitely had nav lights, I know this for certain because it flew very low right in front of my house as I was trying to explain to him how to turn the lights on.

DF.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 09:04
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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If it looks like a nav light and it lights up green, then it probably is !
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 10:05
  #88 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post

If it looks like a nav light and it lights up green, then it probably is !
Absolutely!
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 20:28
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Not sure what the syllabus is for RAA..we are ALL taught how to perform a 180 under the hood to prevent losing control after inadvertantly entering IMC in cloud. What we are lacking is we are NOT taught how to get on the ground after last light. Arguing the toss on busting last light because of poor judgement/weather constraint is immaterial! Maybe, what we should be pushing for is competency in night circuits. My first school urged us to do night circuit training, including landing with no lights using the flarepath only. Would this type of training have saved a couple of lives?
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 21:43
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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In the USA, night flying is an integral part of private pilot licence proficiency requirements and there’s no specific night rating or endorsement. But what would the Yanks know about aviation.

Whether that proficiency would have made any difference in this case probably depends on whether or not the fuel ran out before the PAL (or flares) were activated.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 21:43
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Or, replicate the training system in the USA where a PPL allows you to fly have a night-time. They have no night endorsement because it is part of a regular PPL. You can never be over trained (unless you are married)
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 22:27
  #92 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
In the USA, night flying is an integral part of private pilot licence proficiency requirements and there’s no specific night rating or endorsement. But what would the Yanks know about aviation.

Whether that proficiency would have made any difference in this case probably depends on whether or not the fuel ran out before the PAL (or flares) were activated.
Lights were on though, as I've stated several times. Which makes this accident all the more puzzling. And we no longer have flares.

DF.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 22:55
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Hi DF

I got the impression (perhaps mistaken or based on inaccurate rumour) that the runway lights were activated by the pilot of the accompanying aircraft after landing? If that’s correct (it may well not be) I surmised that the accident aircraft was still flying around in the interim, eventually in the dark, consuming fuel all the while.

Reference was made earlier to some difficulty with the PAL system. What was that difficulty?
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 23:17
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I wrote to the head of CASA around 7? years ago with a well crafted and formal letter that I was assisted with by Dick Smith.

The letter was in relation to NVFR forming part of the PPL syllabus and was in response to a higher than normal number of night-time crashes by un-rated PPL’s at the time, in crashes not dissimilar to this one. References were made to how CASA’s mandate is to follow the world’s best practice and how the USA include the NVFR with the PPL etc.

The official response was that the director was in caretaker mode and my request would be actioned as soon as the new head took over.

Nothing but crickets since then despite two follow-up letters.

I later heard through unofficial channels that if they did try to do that, they would go out to the industry for consultation, which in this case would include half a dozen grumpy old CFI’s and that they would say it was unsafe etc, cost them money, etc etc and that it would never go ahead.

I have since noted / read that the USA has a disproportionately high number of NVFR accidents in comparison with Australia in terms of hours flown at night under the NVFR. I then wondered if in fact it was a good idea in the first place.


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Old 10th Jul 2019, 23:29
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Currency is everything in aviation. Whether that be NVFR, IFR, or just basic day VFR in a C150.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 23:30
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Source of data for the “disproportionately high number”, please Squawk.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 23:37
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Possible scenario:
Pilot finds that whilst en-route his ETA is not quite what he had expected, wondering about his fuel Qty left the whole time. Flying SE means the view ahead is rapidly getting dull. Arrives overhead now very worried, nervous & feeling rather silly. Can't get the Rwy lights activated whilst flying around in what would be considered a very strange environment. Flying at night in the outback is not for the faint hearted. Numerous turns to stay close the airfield has left the pilot almost disorientated. Swiss cheese holes starting to line up now. 1. low fuel to the point of being unknown. 2. Night time, very dark, never done this before. 3. Very anxious can't seem to get the lights activated all the time trying to keep the plane upright. 4. Now very disorientated, very nervous, passenger now adding to his concerns by becoming also very upset. 5. Fuel finally runs out, desperate Mayday call. The holes have now lined up perfectly.. Their world is now very frightening, quiet, almost surreal, fighting the plane as it loses energy in the dark the compass starts moving alarming fast, the wind noise is increasing, the heart rate is fast, eyeballs almost out stretched looking for a single light, feeling for the ground out there somewhere in the inky black darkness....suddenly it ends...…….tragedy has claimed two lives....RIP

The above is a typical scenario possibly not actually this one but similar?
I can only hope others may learn something of their demise:-(
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 00:00
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Source of data for the “disproportionately high number”, please Squawk.
From almost 7 years ago? My memory isn’t that good!
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 00:05
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
A bit said all around really. Two die in an aircraft accident and the discussion has degenerated into an argument about who knows more about the certification of LSA.
Lookleft,
Can't help yourself, can you??
The ONLY reason for my comments is that I think it is highly improbable that the aircraft certification was a factor in this accident.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 00:05
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to recall that after the new airport was built, up till sometime in the mid 1990's night VFR ops were not permitted at all. Then the current procedures were developed and published in ERSA.

FLIGHT PROCEDURES

1. Right Hand circuits RQ when OPR on RWY 02 and RWY 29.

2. RWY 02/20- Night TKOF and LDG are not permitted.

3. Night VFR OPS approved under the FLW mandatory conditions:

WX COND at the time must meet the night VMC requirements. Circuit ALT must not be less than 2,050FT. OPS under night VFR COND are only permitted on RWY 11/29. Circling and circuits must be kept WI 3NM of either THR. DEP ACFT must FLW the circuit direction and remain WI 3NM until reaching LSALT for the first TR. DEP ACFT must use full length of the RWY- INT DEP are not permitted for night OPS. ARR ACFT must MNTN LSALT until positively established WI 3NM and then descend to not less than 2,050FT until turning base for LDG. This base position must be kept WI 3NM of the THR.

4. RWY 11/29- IFR CAT ACFT LDG HN are not to descend BLW 1,950FT unless established on AT-VASIS, or on final approach.
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