Qantas pilot academy - latest rejection
However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.
You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.
The only way this could succeed is to accumulate a significant amount of data which showed an incontrovertible bias in age/gender/etc in the successful V unsuccessful candidates. How you would gather such data I don't know. For the OP to undertake such a process would mean he/she would be diverting their focus from attaining their goal, thus wasting valuable energy and time. It's not a practical option for them.
However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.
You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.
However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.
You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.
The only way this could succeed is to accumulate a significant amount of data which showed an incontrovertible bias in age/gender/etc in the successful V unsuccessful candidates. How you would gather such data I don't know. For the OP to undertake such a process would mean he/she would be diverting their focus from attaining their goal, thus wasting valuable energy and time. It's not a practical option for them.
However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.
You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.
However it would be an interesting exercise and could throw a light on a PC can of worms.
You can be sure any such bias would be vigorously denied so your data would need to be rock solid.
They can easily defend it by saying older applicants won’t be able to give a return of service long enough to recoup training costs and they will back it up with data from across the world that says that older applicants have a higher rate of dropout or ... insert wild claims here... you can ONLY fight this in court or via the media.
Take a look at the AirServices ATC entry criteria and you’ll see the same thing.
Unfortunately, this is reality.
I disagree, it's not too late to follow the dream. I know of several people who have started well into their thirties and even mid to late forties and are very happy with their decision. Sure it's not for everybody but it can work for some.
As for "top of the ladder" not everyone is obsessed with being a wide body captain.
So long as anyone entering the game is aware of the trials and tribulations of the job and have realistic expectations about where their career can take them and so do it with their eyes open then it can be a worthwhile and rewarding exercise. The problems happen when expectations and reality are not matched.
As for "top of the ladder" not everyone is obsessed with being a wide body captain.
So long as anyone entering the game is aware of the trials and tribulations of the job and have realistic expectations about where their career can take them and so do it with their eyes open then it can be a worthwhile and rewarding exercise. The problems happen when expectations and reality are not matched.
The problem with aviation is that we all suffer from the "grass is greener next door" syndrome. Only when its all too late and we've moved next door, do we realize the high cost of all that water which keeps the grass greener.
No idea how much a turboprop CN or FO earns in Oz these days, but I'm guessing there's not a lot left over at the end of the month, especially for the FOs. Is it even possible for a C-210 pilot to earn enough to support a family? This is the harsh reality which Tempo TCu needs to get a grip with. Worse still, a lot of jobs for low time pilots are in the bush. Great fun when you're young and single, not so much otherwise.
I honestly can't think of any jobs with reasonable Ts&Cs, longevity, job security and satisfaction. Only the RFDS springs to mind.
I started flying in 1975, besides the RFDS, Qantas, CASA and NAAFI I cannot think of a single other operator still in existence from those days. So much for job stability or longevity for an aviation career. A sobering thought, no? Hence my "brutal" advice to TempoTCu, it was meant with good intentions and not an ounce of malice or negativity.
TempoTCu,
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place, there is lots of aviation outside of three relatively small airline groups that "call Australia home".
One example, known to me, because I gave him his first (part time) job with a brand new CPL.
Age mid-thirties, a tradesman with a family.
Gained the CPL with a local aeroclub flying school.
First job flying single engine.
Got a CIR, gained a job with a local operator, flying various C-310/320, 402 etc.
Got himself to the US, did the usual ATR/multi/ IR etc., and went looking ---- by this stage the biggest he had flown was DC-3/C-47.
To cut a long story short, within ten years he was a wide body Captain for a major middle eastern carrier ---- and there are more opportunities out there now than ever, because the aviation industry is so much bigger.
BUT, as many have correctly told you, age is very much against you in the small puddle (the statistical rounding error) that is Australian aviation.
Tootle pip!!
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place, there is lots of aviation outside of three relatively small airline groups that "call Australia home".
One example, known to me, because I gave him his first (part time) job with a brand new CPL.
Age mid-thirties, a tradesman with a family.
Gained the CPL with a local aeroclub flying school.
First job flying single engine.
Got a CIR, gained a job with a local operator, flying various C-310/320, 402 etc.
Got himself to the US, did the usual ATR/multi/ IR etc., and went looking ---- by this stage the biggest he had flown was DC-3/C-47.
To cut a long story short, within ten years he was a wide body Captain for a major middle eastern carrier ---- and there are more opportunities out there now than ever, because the aviation industry is so much bigger.
BUT, as many have correctly told you, age is very much against you in the small puddle (the statistical rounding error) that is Australian aviation.
Tootle pip!!
They will gather the data for you and if there’s a trend, you will have to take them to court yourself. Even if they find something blatantly obvious, they can’t do anything about it. YOU have to at your expense.
They can easily defend it by saying older applicants won’t be able to give a return of service long enough to recoup training costs and they will back it up with data from across the world that says that older applicants have a higher rate of dropout or ... insert wild claims here... you can ONLY fight this in court or via the media.
Take a look at the AirServices ATC entry criteria and you’ll see the same thing.
Unfortunately, this is reality.
If this isn't a cadetship then what training costs would they be recouping?
Do we want the situation like the UK where they have to provide application forms for ATC in braille?
Do we want the situation like the UK where they have to provide application forms for ATC in braille?
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I would say to Tempo, its a big wide aviation world out there. We live on this parochial rock, basically a pimple on the ass of the world down the bottom of the Pacific, we aint the real world, we like to think we are but we aint.
I know a guy who worked in GA in Australia and New Guinea for over twenty years, loved every minute of it, but being the right guy at the right time, as so often happens, an opportunity arrived and in his forties went to a foreign airline and finished up with a command on a wide body living the dream as they say. If you have the passion pursue your dream, forget about the naysayers.
An anecdote to match Fantomes. I guy I knew some years ago, had got through all a major airlines BS application process and was sitting in front of the final interview panel of crusty old captains. They were rather suss that he was a single guy in his mid thirties, they kept up the probing questions, never quite getting to the point, they thought he might be gay. Finally one of the old grey beards asked " We are interested to find out why you haven't taken a wife"...As in Fantomes case with the quick witted girl, he responded " Haven't found anyones wife I particularly want to take"!! No Laughs, just stunned silence! He recalls at that point he watched his airline career fly out the window. That guy went on to a fantastic career in the middle East and Europe and Asia, he's about to retire as a wide body C&T captain.
Tempo, Australia is the greatest place in the world in which to live, but that does not mean you can't make a good life elsewhere, even with your family in tow. My own kids grew up all over the world and are better for it, at the end of the day you'll come home and far better for it.
Embrace the world old mate.
I know a guy who worked in GA in Australia and New Guinea for over twenty years, loved every minute of it, but being the right guy at the right time, as so often happens, an opportunity arrived and in his forties went to a foreign airline and finished up with a command on a wide body living the dream as they say. If you have the passion pursue your dream, forget about the naysayers.
An anecdote to match Fantomes. I guy I knew some years ago, had got through all a major airlines BS application process and was sitting in front of the final interview panel of crusty old captains. They were rather suss that he was a single guy in his mid thirties, they kept up the probing questions, never quite getting to the point, they thought he might be gay. Finally one of the old grey beards asked " We are interested to find out why you haven't taken a wife"...As in Fantomes case with the quick witted girl, he responded " Haven't found anyones wife I particularly want to take"!! No Laughs, just stunned silence! He recalls at that point he watched his airline career fly out the window. That guy went on to a fantastic career in the middle East and Europe and Asia, he's about to retire as a wide body C&T captain.
Tempo, Australia is the greatest place in the world in which to live, but that does not mean you can't make a good life elsewhere, even with your family in tow. My own kids grew up all over the world and are better for it, at the end of the day you'll come home and far better for it.
Embrace the world old mate.
You have dodged a bullet.
If you want to fly, find a crusty old flight instructor that will take you from ppl to CPL.
Do your CPL in C182/206, get the crusty old bloke to take you into some dodgy ag strips, crosswind landings etc.
The crusty old flight instructor is the one that doesn’t wear a safety vest, deaf in one ear, can’t hear out of the other one, blind in one eye, poor vision in the other one, will sleep quiet soundly on a two hour navex from just after top of climb, at this stage of his career he has had more wives/ girlfriends/mistress’s than downturns in GA.
If you want to fly, find a crusty old flight instructor that will take you from ppl to CPL.
Do your CPL in C182/206, get the crusty old bloke to take you into some dodgy ag strips, crosswind landings etc.
The crusty old flight instructor is the one that doesn’t wear a safety vest, deaf in one ear, can’t hear out of the other one, blind in one eye, poor vision in the other one, will sleep quiet soundly on a two hour navex from just after top of climb, at this stage of his career he has had more wives/ girlfriends/mistress’s than downturns in GA.
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Didn’t they have north of 20000 applications?
I imagine the majority will get a no at the first cut, the lucky ones get to pay to then be assessed.
I’m a bit late to this party but agree with what’s been previously said, your age and gendar has let you down.
Keep an eye on qf social media, the first batch of graduates will be AT LEAST 50% attractive females aged 20-30.
However there will be diversity.....an Asian female, a blonde female, a brunette female, a tall female, a short female etc.
I imagine the majority will get a no at the first cut, the lucky ones get to pay to then be assessed.
I’m a bit late to this party but agree with what’s been previously said, your age and gendar has let you down.
Keep an eye on qf social media, the first batch of graduates will be AT LEAST 50% attractive females aged 20-30.
However there will be diversity.....an Asian female, a blonde female, a brunette female, a tall female, a short female etc.
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Late 30s? Let's assume you're 37.
1. You pay off your home in 10 years. You get a third job (if you still have the second job, if you don't then you get a second and a third job). All the money goes to the home and the children. Nothing to you or your wife.
2. You stop flying now. Right away. You need to free up your brain capacity for the following points.
3. You buy theory books
4. You see what theory exams you need to sit (obviously not the ones you've already passed). You book the next one, grab its corresponding theory book and study for it.
5. You contribute $50 per week to your ATO Income Tax Account. Each Australian has one, contact your Accountant and he'll give you your BPAY details. You contribute for 10 years.
6. You study and sit all your theory exams (RPL, PPL, CPL, IREX and Instructors - this is important, will explain why in points to follow).
7. After theory exams are passed you do a distance learning ATPL course (they require CPL exam passes prior to enrolling). You learn and sit these exams - and you pass.
8. If all goes as planned house is paid off by 47. You stop working at job number 1. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
9. You enroll in an Aviation Course that is covered by a HELP Loan. You do the Certificate for Commercial Pilot, for Multi-Engine IR and for Instructors Rating. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
10. The Certificates by this time would be about $160,000 (indexed) with roughly about $25,000 in loan fee (loan fee is covered with contributions from point 5).
11. You pass the course because you're just focusing on flying (freed up brain capacity) - you've taken care of the theory side of things.
12. You apply for a job as an instructor at the school or club that you did your Certificate at. YOU DO NOT GO JOB HUNTING. You stay because you have a family to look after so you pester and pester until they offer you a job. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
13. If all goes as planned you'll have it all done by 49/50. Pay off your HELP loan with your wage as an instructor which is minor, so...(you know it) you continue working job number 2 and number 3
14. You work as an instructor and build you hours at your GA Airport until you reach the minimums for the Airlines and then you apply. Rejected? Apply again, and again, and network and network at the airport as much as you can.
The sooner you pay off your loans the sooner you can follow a plan.
Your life ends when you die, not in your late 30s...
1. You pay off your home in 10 years. You get a third job (if you still have the second job, if you don't then you get a second and a third job). All the money goes to the home and the children. Nothing to you or your wife.
2. You stop flying now. Right away. You need to free up your brain capacity for the following points.
3. You buy theory books
4. You see what theory exams you need to sit (obviously not the ones you've already passed). You book the next one, grab its corresponding theory book and study for it.
5. You contribute $50 per week to your ATO Income Tax Account. Each Australian has one, contact your Accountant and he'll give you your BPAY details. You contribute for 10 years.
6. You study and sit all your theory exams (RPL, PPL, CPL, IREX and Instructors - this is important, will explain why in points to follow).
7. After theory exams are passed you do a distance learning ATPL course (they require CPL exam passes prior to enrolling). You learn and sit these exams - and you pass.
8. If all goes as planned house is paid off by 47. You stop working at job number 1. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
9. You enroll in an Aviation Course that is covered by a HELP Loan. You do the Certificate for Commercial Pilot, for Multi-Engine IR and for Instructors Rating. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
10. The Certificates by this time would be about $160,000 (indexed) with roughly about $25,000 in loan fee (loan fee is covered with contributions from point 5).
11. You pass the course because you're just focusing on flying (freed up brain capacity) - you've taken care of the theory side of things.
12. You apply for a job as an instructor at the school or club that you did your Certificate at. YOU DO NOT GO JOB HUNTING. You stay because you have a family to look after so you pester and pester until they offer you a job. You continue working job number 2 and number 3.
13. If all goes as planned you'll have it all done by 49/50. Pay off your HELP loan with your wage as an instructor which is minor, so...(you know it) you continue working job number 2 and number 3
14. You work as an instructor and build you hours at your GA Airport until you reach the minimums for the Airlines and then you apply. Rejected? Apply again, and again, and network and network at the airport as much as you can.
The sooner you pay off your loans the sooner you can follow a plan.
Your life ends when you die, not in your late 30s...
Things to consider..
Hi Tempo,
A bit more food for thought.
You're also signing up for half a lifetimes worth of shift work. With a young Family, how do you (and also importantly your significant other) feel about being absent for MOST significant Family events including anniversaries/ birthdays/ Christmas etc etc.
And on the rare occasion that you are rostered off, there's a high chance that you'll be too stuffed to really enjoy it as you'll have just completed a string of 4+ sector days including early starts and late finishes. You'll be highly susceptible to chronic fatigue which is insidious because once it sets in, you won't realise how tired you really are.
I completed my CPL/ MECIR/ ATPL subjects in my late 30's while working in Flight Dispatch (doing flight planning) for a major Australian airline, which meant that I got to interact with Flightcrew on a daily basis. Believe me, even the keenest and freshest Cadets were bitching and moaning about fatigue/ loss of control of their life due to rostering/ being pestered by Crewing to work on days off etc after about 6- 12 months. My colleagues and I in flight dispatch used to be pretty good at it too. There's nothing glamorous about getting up at 4am 4 days in a row, or spending weekends/ Christmas/ Easter at work.
Life has taken me in another direction and I'm established in a very enjoyable career as a specialist Theory instructor delivering RPL/ PPL/ CPL and some ATPL theory at a tertiary institution.
I work close to home.
I sleep in my own Bed every night.
I can drop the Kids off at School and pick them up every day.
I actually look forward to weekends because my life isn't being controlled by a bloody roster.
For the same reason, I look forward to Christmas/ Easter etc.
I'm able to have an active social life because I can commit to things on a regular basis.
My health and sleep patterns are vastly improved.
I get to fly when I want on the company purse (my Employer encourages me to stay current).
I'm only pointing out the above because I absolutely used to be like you. I wasn't going to be happy until I was an Airline Pilot.
Although flying a jet would be cool, and the extra $$$ would be nice, it's not the be and end all. Up until the 1990's, it was a career worth sacrificing a lot of things for. Up until then, you were given $$$ without having to trade off quality of life and health.
The career today offers less $$$ (adjusted for inflation over 20-30 years) AND demands a lesser quality of life paired with the risk of damaging your health.
What's more important to you?
A bit more food for thought.
You're also signing up for half a lifetimes worth of shift work. With a young Family, how do you (and also importantly your significant other) feel about being absent for MOST significant Family events including anniversaries/ birthdays/ Christmas etc etc.
And on the rare occasion that you are rostered off, there's a high chance that you'll be too stuffed to really enjoy it as you'll have just completed a string of 4+ sector days including early starts and late finishes. You'll be highly susceptible to chronic fatigue which is insidious because once it sets in, you won't realise how tired you really are.
I completed my CPL/ MECIR/ ATPL subjects in my late 30's while working in Flight Dispatch (doing flight planning) for a major Australian airline, which meant that I got to interact with Flightcrew on a daily basis. Believe me, even the keenest and freshest Cadets were bitching and moaning about fatigue/ loss of control of their life due to rostering/ being pestered by Crewing to work on days off etc after about 6- 12 months. My colleagues and I in flight dispatch used to be pretty good at it too. There's nothing glamorous about getting up at 4am 4 days in a row, or spending weekends/ Christmas/ Easter at work.
Life has taken me in another direction and I'm established in a very enjoyable career as a specialist Theory instructor delivering RPL/ PPL/ CPL and some ATPL theory at a tertiary institution.
I work close to home.
I sleep in my own Bed every night.
I can drop the Kids off at School and pick them up every day.
I actually look forward to weekends because my life isn't being controlled by a bloody roster.
For the same reason, I look forward to Christmas/ Easter etc.
I'm able to have an active social life because I can commit to things on a regular basis.
My health and sleep patterns are vastly improved.
I get to fly when I want on the company purse (my Employer encourages me to stay current).
I'm only pointing out the above because I absolutely used to be like you. I wasn't going to be happy until I was an Airline Pilot.
Although flying a jet would be cool, and the extra $$$ would be nice, it's not the be and end all. Up until the 1990's, it was a career worth sacrificing a lot of things for. Up until then, you were given $$$ without having to trade off quality of life and health.
The career today offers less $$$ (adjusted for inflation over 20-30 years) AND demands a lesser quality of life paired with the risk of damaging your health.
What's more important to you?
For what it’s worth, you’re not too old for the military either. There was a dude on my pilots course in his late 30’s with kids.
They don’t pay you like dirt either and you get to do some pretty cool flying.
They don’t pay you like dirt either and you get to do some pretty cool flying.
From memory some years back it was clearly stated that you had to be less than 31 to fly for the RAAF (joining age). I wonder when they changed that or if I’ve got that horribly wrong!
lucille's advice , (#33) , is worth serious reflection. (See quote here.) The beauty of these invaluable forums is that if you are sufficiently discriminatory in assessing the experience and advice of some of those who contribute to the debate, you may be saved the heartaches and regrets that "living the dream" may incur.
Taking a broad view, predicting the next twenty to thirty years of life on earth is clouded by grim omens. Why not stay close to home and put your energies into enhancing the life of your young family. But if you must fly at any cost, perhaps take the advice of Stationair8 (#50) who has been round the block more times than a superannuated paperboy.
Taking a broad view, predicting the next twenty to thirty years of life on earth is clouded by grim omens. Why not stay close to home and put your energies into enhancing the life of your young family. But if you must fly at any cost, perhaps take the advice of Stationair8 (#50) who has been round the block more times than a superannuated paperboy.
By way of perspective, may I add that the harsh reality of flying as a lucrative career is that it’s no longer fun nor enjoyable and will be the entire opposite of what you imagine it to be. Not a single one of all my friends would recommend it to their children. The “top of the ladder” is long haul - a special kind of hell. Where you trade your health and family life for money.
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What I find concerning is the 50/50 gender equality.
It should be very safe to assume that by virtue of statistics, in an industry that is male dominant, competitive suitable male applicants will simply not progress though the selection process because the company wants gender equality.
OP - if you have a read though the Qantas and Virgin Recruitment thread there are a lot of experienced pilots out there with thousands of hours that have been rejected for unknown reasons.
They share your same frustration.
It should be very safe to assume that by virtue of statistics, in an industry that is male dominant, competitive suitable male applicants will simply not progress though the selection process because the company wants gender equality.
OP - if you have a read though the Qantas and Virgin Recruitment thread there are a lot of experienced pilots out there with thousands of hours that have been rejected for unknown reasons.
They share your same frustration.
https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/jobs/air-force/pilot
No idea when they changed it, I don't remember what it was when I joined as I was only 18 at the time haha.
