DA40 night over water

[ACMS]

Originally Posted by Give it the herbs

ACMS, are you suggesting simply 'box-ticking' is a better solution to training up and coming pilots in Australia?

Rather than expose potential charter pilots (yes.. they train people other than Asian students believe it or not..) to what they might be faced with once gaining their instrument rating, should they be wrapped in cotton wool and practice night flying at 2000ft above an airfield? Kingscote is as black as it gets at night and great real-world exposure for students late in their training.

Also, personally I'd also prefer the ocean to the mount lofty ranges at night time... at least you know what altitude the ocean starts out there.

oh don’t be stupid, box ticking?

there’s stupid risk and acceptable risk. They flew that way at low level to avoid Class C and D airspace.....

Most people would rather forced land at night on land than in the cold dark sea. Much easier for rescuers to find you as well.
Not only that higher Altitude gives you a lot more time and choices.....4,000’ and its all over in 5 mins .......

There’s plenty of places that they can go at night better than that.
if they want dark night circuits then fly down there in daylight and wait if it’s so important, or better still wait and do that trip in the Twin DA42......simple

[cooperplace]

Originally Posted by megan

27th January 1979 I winched five from a ditched Bell 205, cause one main rotor blade yoke had fractured leaving the blade attached only by the tension torsion strap causing excessive vibration.

The other.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/...Wessex-825.pdf

You might note the comment re hypothermia in the report bearing in mind it was December ie summer, not the middle of winter. The same aircraft UHP was used in both rescues.

Megan,
That's an amazing story; you saved lives, an extraordinary achievement. I for one would be happy to read a full account of the first incident. The second I can get from that link, thanks.

[machtuk]

Originally Posted by cowl flaps

I'd fly a Rotax powered Jab to N.Z.- but I wouldn't do one circuit in a Jab powered Jab.

hahaha, that about sums it up nicely:-) There's a Jab owner at my drome that has his bonnet up every W/E, there's always something wrong with his Jab donk.....that's enuf for me to say good luck:-)
Each to their own obviously, luckily we have choice these days:-)

[Time Map Ground]

Originally Posted by ACMS

oh don’t be stupid, box ticking?

there’s stupid risk and acceptable risk. They flew that way at low level to avoid Class C and D airspace.....

Most people would rather forced land at night on land than in the cold dark sea. Much easier for rescuers to find you as well.
Not only that higher Altitude gives you a lot more time and choices.....4,000’ and its all over in 5 mins .......

There’s plenty of places that they can go at night better than that.
if they want dark night circuits then fly down there in daylight and wait if it’s so important, or better still wait and do that trip in the Twin DA42......simple

Perhaps a couple of points worth noting:

• Flying at A040 does not exempt them from having to talk to AD approach. They would still have to fly through class C airspace after departing PF CTAF.
• The short flight between PF-KSC might not permit enough time for a climb to A100. For a normally aspirated DA40 to make it to A100 in such a short time, you would need very favourable conditions like high pressure and very low temperatures.
• Do not forget that light training aircraft like the DA40 are susceptible to airframe and engine icing. Freezing levels down south can easily be as low as 4,000 or 5,000 feet at this time of the year, so it would not make sense to climb into icing conditions.

[ACMS]

Originally Posted by Time Map Ground

Perhaps a couple of points worth noting:

• Flying at A040 does not exempt them from having to talk to AD approach. They would still have to fly through class C airspace after departing PF CTAF.
• The short flight between PF-KSC might not permit enough time for a climb to A100. For a normally aspirated DA40 to make it to A100 in such a short time, you would need very favourable conditions like high pressure and very low temperatures.
• Do not forget that light training aircraft like the DA40 are susceptible to airframe and engine icing. Freezing levels down south can easily be as low as 4,000 or 5,000 feet at this time of the year, so it would not make sense to climb into icing conditions.

1/ FZL an issue? Making you fly low over water at night IMC in a single, then perhaps DON’T GO.
2/ pretty sure they tracked initially NE then W then SW at 2,500’ below the CTA step then 4,000’ below the next step.
3/ yes the climb performance won’t be flash BUT they could have waited for a clearance over AD, gone higher and stayed left of the DCT track closer to the coast line and inside glide distance of it.

It doesn't matter I guess, they made it there and back ok, it just seems unnecessary risk that’s all. Something at my age I’ve learned not to take.

[cooperplace]

Originally Posted by machtuk

hahaha, that about sums it up nicely:-) There's a Jab owner at my drome that has his bonnet up every W/E, there's always something wrong with his Jab donk.....that's enuf for me to say good luck:-)
Each to their own obviously, luckily we have choice these days:-)

I've got a couple of hundred hours in a jab-powered jab; it was a jab that I flew to KI. It's never given any trouble. Each to his own.

[Stickshift3000]

Originally Posted by cooperplace

I've got a couple of hundred hours in a jab-powered jab; it was a jab that I flew to KI. It's never given any trouble. Each to his own.

At night!?

[Stickshift3000]

Originally Posted by ACMS

It doesn't matter I guess, they made it there and back ok, it just seems unnecessary risk that’s all. Something at my age I’ve learned not to take.

‘Unnecessary risk’ for some would include climbing into any cockpit...

Life choices are all about risk appetite and risk management. Increased risk can lead to increased reward - relatively speaking - including for those DA40 pilots, as silly as it may seem to some.

[cooperplace]

Originally Posted by Stickshift3000

At night!?

Good god no! I only fly in the day, and in excellent weather. I'm a complete coward. I don't have to fly, so I only do it when I can stack the cards in my favor.

[megan]

That's an amazing story; you saved lives, an extraordinary achievement. I for one would be happy to read a full account of the first incident

There is nothing to add to the tale really. The ditched aircraft was fitted with floats and was retrieved by a work boat and back in the air by at least 11th February when I first flew it following the ditching. The folks hopped into a life raft for the winching and at no time was it a dramatic life saving event, just a repeat of what we did in training. A correction, the fault was in the blade grip, not the yoke as I said. Photo of one aircraft.

[cooperplace]

That's a fantastic effort. You're very modest, and clearly have excellent training and skills.

[Mach E Avelli]

I have studied ditching in some detail, and know ferry pilots who have related their actual ditching experiences to me. They were lucky, one being pulled off the Arctic ice before freezing to death. Another, who had ditched at least twice before, ended up with a permanent disability from his injuries when he put a BN2 Islander into relatively calm water. On another occasion I was flying a DC3 over the North Sea when I heard someone putting a Cessna 172 into the drink. They knew roughly where he was, but he did not survive.
Even with this knowledge, I have also taken plenty of unnecessary risks in my time, including flying a Jabiru-powered Sonex across Bass Strait several times. The last trip cured me of such risk-taking forever. Low cloud forced me down to below 500ft and the sea was far too rough for any ditching to have been survivable. I consoled myself in the knowledge that if the impact did not kill me outright, death would be quick in such cold water.
Were the pilots of the two DA 40s fully aware that a night ditching is unlikely to be survivable unless executed with considerable skill and into calm water?
Were they fully briefed on the risks, and on minimum altitudes required to have a hope of gliding to land? Who sent them out there? Someone may need a smack on the bottom.

[Sunfish]

Where is CASA on this matter? Surely there are safety issues here?

[outnabout]

I am curious to know why flying over water (day or night) is considered so dangerous, so risky, when every capital city GA airport has Ranges nearby which must be crossed which I consider should be treated with equal respect. In Darwin's case, maybe no Ranges, but certainly the waterways nearby contain things with teeth that I would rather not mess with.

If you are trained, current and confident, to fly an aircraft (single or twin) in VFR, IMC, over water, over Tiger country, day, night, upside down, then go for your life. But if you are not trained, current or confident (Pick any one of these three) then may I suggest - don't.

But I really would prefer if you didn't let your standards and your limits stop me.

[megan]

I am curious to know why flying over water (day or night) is considered so dangerous

It's persons willingness to accept the risk entailed I guess. Richard Collins, aviation author, happily flew his 210 day or night IMC, but had his personal limits, such as cloud base high enough for him to set up for a landing into whatever was below in the event of an engine out.

Where is CASA on this matter? Surely there are safety issues here

Stickshift has given you the answer Sunny.

Life choices are all about risk appetite and risk management

There was a time when CASA, or whatever its name was at the time, approved commercial single engine pax operations over water far from land, simply because the world didn't have equipment to do otherwise. Only requirement was no more than 50 miles between available landing spots. Single engine sightseeing commercial ops are still carried out on the barrier reef of course.

[machtuk]

Every now & then this subject matter comes up & it's always interesting the replies, SE over water day or night is simply not for everyone. We each have our reasons as to why we would or wouldn't, doubt anyone here is trying to stop anyone from doing so either way, these pages are simply accounts or beliefs of such stunts, no more or no less. It's a free world (well kind of!) any of us are welcome to head out over water in a SE day or night & accept the higher risks associated with such a flight, in other words knock yourselves out, at my age with plenty of experience behind me (like many in here) I'll be watching from the shore with dry feet:-):-)
Mankind went to the Moon 50 years ago (just about) which at the time was extremely risky, would anyone do it again today using the same equip/technology? Obviously no cause we have choices today (unlike back then) just like we do now crossing a body of water in a SE plane, we have a choice:-)

[mostlytossas]

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well. Post war single engine air ambulances flew all weather in the outback and inner country areas. The list goes on.... Fast forward to present day and some of you are horrified with the thought of flying over a bit of water relatively close to land or even at night in VMC in a single engine aircraft! I mean really take up knitting if you want to be 100% safe. I trust these same people wouldn't drive on country roads at night with no street lighting with wildlife lurking to attack the unsuspecting. And as for motorcycles don't even go there. Far too risky for you.
Stick to walking or train travel only and be happy in your own little world that you are safe. But leave the rest of us to get on with life and what we enjoy without people like you calling for CASA or new rules stopping us. There are plenty of rules already ( some say more than enough) to keep things as safe as reasonably can be expected. Nothing in life is without some risk. Going on about this sort of nonsense will just cause more angst until GA finally gets shut down by the aviation ignorant.

[Mach E Avelli]

And what do the 'plenty of rules' already say about minimum altitudes for single engine commercial operations over water? From the OP, the two aircraft were estimated to be at 4000 feet, in the dark, beyond gliding distance from land.
The days of a 'gung ho' culture in aviation have gone forever. Today people litigate when bad **** happens, even when they contribute to that bad **** either through ignorance or stupidity.
Engine failure? Sue the manufacturer, MRO and whoever signed the last maintenance release. Ditched and flipped inverted/sank? Sue the designer, builder, instructor and flight organisation who hired the thing out. Drowned? Rellies sue the rescue organisation for not being instantly on the crash site.
GA is already in destruct mode, without pilots being encouraged to take unnecessary risks. Every time people die in light aircraft accidents it hastens that demise.
Btw although the years finally made me risk-averse to over-water in bugsmashers, I still ride a motorcycle, knowing that statistically the motorcycle is the more dangerous. But at least I am fully informed, which may not have been the case with those student pilots.

[ACMS]

Originally Posted by mostlytossas

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well. Post war single engine air ambulances flew all weather in the outback and inner country areas. The list goes on.... Fast forward to present day and some of you are horrified with the thought of flying over a bit of water relatively close to land or even at night in VMC in a single engine aircraft! I mean really take up knitting if you want to be 100% safe. I trust these same people wouldn't drive on country roads at night with no street lighting with wildlife lurking to attack the unsuspecting. And as for motorcycles don't even go there. Far too risky for you.
Stick to walking or train travel only and be happy in your own little world that you are safe. But leave the rest of us to get on with life and what we enjoy without people like you calling for CASA or new rules stopping us. There are plenty of rules already ( some say more than enough) to keep things as safe as reasonably can be expected. Nothing in life is without some risk. Going on about this sort of nonsense will just cause more angst until GA finally gets shut down by the aviation ignorant.

We are not at war time conditions mate....

It’s you that could be called ignorant, blissfully ignorant of the extra unnecessary dangers that don’t NEED to be taken, then expecting other good people to come out risking their lives to save your sorry ass.

[machtuk]

Originally Posted by mostlytossas

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well. Post war single engine air ambulances flew all weather in the outback and inner country areas. The list goes on.... Fast forward to present day and some of you are horrified with the thought of flying over a bit of water relatively close to land or even at night in VMC in a single engine aircraft! I mean really take up knitting if you want to be 100% safe. I trust these same people wouldn't drive on country roads at night with no street lighting with wildlife lurking to attack the unsuspecting. And as for motorcycles don't even go there. Far too risky for you.
Stick to walking or train travel only and be happy in your own little world that you are safe. But leave the rest of us to get on with life and what we enjoy without people like you calling for CASA or new rules stopping us. There are plenty of rules already ( some say more than enough) to keep things as safe as reasonably can be expected. Nothing in life is without some risk. Going on about this sort of nonsense will just cause more angst until GA finally gets shut down by the aviation ignorant.

ACMS I think he's feeling a a little butt hurt, are we? Talk about going off the rails there! War time? If I recall they had no choice WE have!
Relax take a bex and lie down, it's all about personal risk/choice