Automotive V8 Engine Conversions for Aircraft
Automotive V8 Engine Conversions for Aircraft
It's been long postulated that car engines are unsuitable for aviation use because of the high continuous power demands compared to motoring. Is this still true in the days of 1000 Hp Helephant crate engines (7 ltre supercharged), V8 Supercar engines that have the majority of components last indefinitely and now 600 Hp 4 litre power units are common.
The Heliphant engine is a good example. 1000 Hp put of the box, why couldn't it be run at 500 Hp in an aviation context. What am I missing. I'm not even touching the 500 CID billet engines that have set 4000 Hp on dynos. This unit costs approximately the same as a brand new TIO-550 ($130,000 USD). So has the game changed?
Some interesting videos I have discovered.
The Heliphant engine is a good example. 1000 Hp put of the box, why couldn't it be run at 500 Hp in an aviation context. What am I missing. I'm not even touching the 500 CID billet engines that have set 4000 Hp on dynos. This unit costs approximately the same as a brand new TIO-550 ($130,000 USD). So has the game changed?
Some interesting videos I have discovered.
I've seen Spitfire replicas running LS v8s and Isuzu V6s so it already been done for a while.
I'm not that familiar with them but the first I saw was about 10 years ago and I assume the kits are still being built.
Google says they are good for 250-430 HP, if you need more power you probably need a second engine or a turbine rather than a relatively obscure piston car engine with four digit HP figures.
I'm not that familiar with them but the first I saw was about 10 years ago and I assume the kits are still being built.
Google says they are good for 250-430 HP, if you need more power you probably need a second engine or a turbine rather than a relatively obscure piston car engine with four digit HP figures.
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The obvious questions are:
- How are you going to cool it? I would imagine that we're looking at a large radiator, a lot of water, etc.
- How much does it weigh? Especially once you add the water cooling.
- How will you connect it to a propeller? Most propellers are happy around the 2500 - 2700RPM mark, which is also where most aviation piston engines operate. You can add gearing, but that adds weight, adds a point of failure, and potentially requires a flywheel to smooth our torque on the gears.
- Can you get it certified and persuade an aircraft manufacturer that it's a valid option?
With regards to lifespan - suppose you put this in a car, hooked up a massive trailer that will require 500hp continuously, and went for a drive on the highway at 100km/h. How far do you think you'd get before the engine needed an overhaul? 1000km? 10,000? 100,000? I'd be guessing somewhere substantially less than 100,000km. But that's only a thousand hours of use, and most aviation engines are very conservatively rated to at least 2000 hours before overhaul.
- How are you going to cool it? I would imagine that we're looking at a large radiator, a lot of water, etc.
- How much does it weigh? Especially once you add the water cooling.
- How will you connect it to a propeller? Most propellers are happy around the 2500 - 2700RPM mark, which is also where most aviation piston engines operate. You can add gearing, but that adds weight, adds a point of failure, and potentially requires a flywheel to smooth our torque on the gears.
- Can you get it certified and persuade an aircraft manufacturer that it's a valid option?
With regards to lifespan - suppose you put this in a car, hooked up a massive trailer that will require 500hp continuously, and went for a drive on the highway at 100km/h. How far do you think you'd get before the engine needed an overhaul? 1000km? 10,000? 100,000? I'd be guessing somewhere substantially less than 100,000km. But that's only a thousand hours of use, and most aviation engines are very conservatively rated to at least 2000 hours before overhaul.
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"It's been long postulated that car engines are unsuitable for aviation use because of the high continuous power demands compared to motoring."
Didn't the replica Southern Cross have V8 engines? VW and Subaru engines have been converted for aviation use. I suspect some of today's light weight aluminum engines and particularly the light weight turbo diesels could be re purposed for aviation use. I wonder what happened to the Porsche PFM 3200 aircraft engine and the Chev Turbo-Air 6 engine?
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The Pawnee tug at Benalla has been running with a Chev V8 for years now and much cheaper to run/replace than original.
Jim Wickham’s scale Mustangs likewise.
there are an awful lot of RA aircraft running around on skidoo engines too.
kaz
Jim Wickham’s scale Mustangs likewise.
there are an awful lot of RA aircraft running around on skidoo engines too.
kaz
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Weight, complexity, support & resale value, all these factors are why auto engines haven't flourished at the GA level. Cessna & Mooney I think dabbled in it, soon fell by the wayside. I like my simple air cooled 180HP, Lyc 4 banger, it's easy to maintain, parts are available at any milkbar around the corner & every LAME knows about them far & wide. With Electronic Ignition, a good engine monitor display & a known history I see little reason to make the powerplant complex like that of an Auto engine. A Vans RV8 powered by an Auto donk recently sold in flying condition for around half of what it would have fetched if it where properly set up with a 200HP Lyc, there's another reason!
Each to their own as choice is there but not taken up in large numbers.
Each to their own as choice is there but not taken up in large numbers.
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I'm not into these light things but I would have thought building one with a serviceable auto engine would also be less than half the price of building one with an Lycoming or Continental aircraft engine?
Orenda Canada built a modified V8 replacement for PT-6 in King Air 90 many years ago.
Fact check: The Lang Kidby/Peter MacMillan Vickers Vimy replica was Chevvy V8 powered not the Southern Cross replica which has Jacobs radials in all three positions...
Fact check: The Lang Kidby/Peter MacMillan Vickers Vimy replica was Chevvy V8 powered not the Southern Cross replica which has Jacobs radials in all three positions...
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Think of the rev range required for a propeller to be efficient.
Think of the rev range required for a car engine to be efficient.
You might well say, "That can easily be solved by a gearbox". (More weight)
So you try it anyway, and find the engine destroys the gearbox. Why? No flywheel to damp out the "pulses" of power as each cylinder fires.
So you add a flywheel between the engine and gearbox, just like on a car (More weight) to get it reliable, but find you need a bigger aircraft to lift it all.
Which of course requires a bigger engine...
Think of the rev range required for a car engine to be efficient.
You might well say, "That can easily be solved by a gearbox". (More weight)
So you try it anyway, and find the engine destroys the gearbox. Why? No flywheel to damp out the "pulses" of power as each cylinder fires.
So you add a flywheel between the engine and gearbox, just like on a car (More weight) to get it reliable, but find you need a bigger aircraft to lift it all.
Which of course requires a bigger engine...
Some more stuff I have seen over the years. It's interesting to witness the development of the mechanical side of things. A friend of mine has a Golf R with a Stage 3 mod package. He has done 50,000 km in it and tracks in at least every 3rd weekend as well as being a daily driver. It produces 630 hp from 2 litres......on stock internals. No rods, pistons, crankshaft or bearings have been touched.
I used to fly one of these - air cooled flat 4 VW engine. It worked very well!
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The Pawnee tug at Benalla has been running with a Chev V8 for years now and much cheaper to run/replace than original.
kaz3g; You got any info on just what transpired with that project? And why it has not proceeded?
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The most disappointing thing about this thread is that they never built a production radial car engine.
Most car engines have puny little cylinders that need to work very hard to squirt out their power, whereas most aero engines prefer big bangs and operate that screw nice and slow.
Most car engines have puny little cylinders that need to work very hard to squirt out their power, whereas most aero engines prefer big bangs and operate that screw nice and slow.
Two of the bigger aerial ag companies on this side of the ditch spent copious amounts of money developing V8 replacements for the IO720's fitted to their Fletchers. One went down the Ford route using a 10 litre engine the other the Chev 6.5 litre engine. Both engines were slated to produce 550 BHP with a gearbox used between the engine and the propeller.
I think in one case the gear box was one of the major hurdles.
Long story short the Ford version actually flew but was cancelled before testing was finished, the Chev version was cancelled before it flew. I understand development costs and getting suitable reliability were the major factors for the projects being cancelled.
I think in one case the gear box was one of the major hurdles.
Long story short the Ford version actually flew but was cancelled before testing was finished, the Chev version was cancelled before it flew. I understand development costs and getting suitable reliability were the major factors for the projects being cancelled.
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Two of the bigger aerial ag companies on this side of the ditch spent copious amounts of money developing V8 replacements for the IO720's fitted to their Fletchers. One went down the Ford route using a 10 litre engine the other the Chev 6.5 litre engine. Both engines were slated to produce 550 BHP with a gearbox used between the engine and the propeller.
I think in one case the gear box was one of the major hurdles.
Long story short the Ford version actually flew but was cancelled before testing was finished, the Chev version was cancelled before it flew. I understand development costs and getting suitable reliability were the major factors for the projects being cancelled.
I think in one case the gear box was one of the major hurdles.
Long story short the Ford version actually flew but was cancelled before testing was finished, the Chev version was cancelled before it flew. I understand development costs and getting suitable reliability were the major factors for the projects being cancelled.
Cimco owns a company that is producing diesel outboard marine engines, they have the 200Hp unit on the market already. They are developing a marine version of the BMW I6 Quad turbo 3 ltr to be rated at 300 Hp on a light duty cycle. Interesting bit is that all these engines have a patented Belt drive systems as seen in the video. Could this work as a PSRU?
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This is the bomb for your scale Spitty or Pony.....V12 LS Engines - Race Cast Engineering
