ATSB Report on Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident
Thread Starter
ATSB Report on Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident
Another Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident. There have been a few of these in the past decade. None of these Tiger Moths had auto slats installed; their owners having removed them to decrease maintenance costs. These stall warning devices were very effective with their loud clacking as the slats moved in and out when the aircraft was approaching the stall.
In the accident concerned, the loud stall warning noise would have alerted the pilot to the impending danger in time for him to take recovery action and at least force land under control, rather than be caught by surprise and stall/spin at low altitude. As the old age says, if you think flight safety is expensive, try an accident.
How much would it cost owners of Tiger Moths to re-install auto slats as a safety measure?
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2015-150/
In the accident concerned, the loud stall warning noise would have alerted the pilot to the impending danger in time for him to take recovery action and at least force land under control, rather than be caught by surprise and stall/spin at low altitude. As the old age says, if you think flight safety is expensive, try an accident.
How much would it cost owners of Tiger Moths to re-install auto slats as a safety measure?
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2015-150/
Looking at the aerial view of the flight path of the aircraft in the ATSB report, why did he attempt to turn left when a gentle right turn would have put him over a clear paddock, and maybe not have resulted in a stall ?
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kennel dweller...mostly
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aggressive forward stick would have been required. The pitch over needed to be aggressive to unload the wings and minimise speed loss. This was no time to look into the cockpit. Eyes on the target!. At the very least, a landing straight ahead, into the trees/scrub, could have been achieved at a modest ground speed.
The poor fellow might not have, during his type training, grasped the absolute importance of performing an aggressive pitch over, followed by a low speed accident into wind.
I vote in favour of Handley-Page auto slats. In addition to the noise, they provide the pilot with a wonderful visual depiction of stall development.
The poor fellow might not have, during his type training, grasped the absolute importance of performing an aggressive pitch over, followed by a low speed accident into wind.
I vote in favour of Handley-Page auto slats. In addition to the noise, they provide the pilot with a wonderful visual depiction of stall development.
Whenever the conversation touches Tiger Moths and spins I can't help thinking of this photo:
https://www.waggabiketyres.com/The%20Canon%201.jpg
https://www.waggabiketyres.com/The%20Canon%201.jpg
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lost, but often Indonesia
Posts: 652
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whenever the conversation touches Tiger Moths and spins I can't help thinking of this photo:
https://www.waggabiketyres.com/The%20Canon%201.jpg
https://www.waggabiketyres.com/The%20Canon%201.jpg
Folks,
That was one of three that flew formation aeros from the Tiger Club, based at Redhill, Surrey, UK in those days. The Canon, Deacon and Bishop. Maybe they had God on their side??
In about 1963, at Biggin Hill. somebody spun a Tiger in, on the field doing aeros overhead, both pilots survived, just bruises and cuts and scratches. --- the steel tube fuselage, really good harnesses and very slow speeds ---- it's Vsquared wot gets ya!!
Tootle pip!!
That was one of three that flew formation aeros from the Tiger Club, based at Redhill, Surrey, UK in those days. The Canon, Deacon and Bishop. Maybe they had God on their side??
In about 1963, at Biggin Hill. somebody spun a Tiger in, on the field doing aeros overhead, both pilots survived, just bruises and cuts and scratches. --- the steel tube fuselage, really good harnesses and very slow speeds ---- it's Vsquared wot gets ya!!
Tootle pip!!
Stall warning systems were not a feature on British aircraft, if Auster & Chipmunk were any guide. Fail to see why Tigers should have slats fitted, they were a buyers option after all. Military probably fitted them as a make work item for ab initio training, instilling cockpit check procedures. We had similar make work items imposed during ab initio, no flap landings if a flag was flying beside the runway van, canopy open at certain stages of flight, both for no good reason, other than to instil discipline.
The aircraft in the OP's link had slats, you can see the left plainly extended.
With only a little over seven hours in the Tiger, the pilot would have had little experience with the aircrafts characteristics, low power, high drag, small speed range, factors pointed out in the report. Was he even aware of the slats "clacking", I certainly don't recall it now from my nearly six decades ago experience, it certainly wasn't a subject of the endorsement.
The aircraft in the OP's link had slats, you can see the left plainly extended.
With only a little over seven hours in the Tiger, the pilot would have had little experience with the aircrafts characteristics, low power, high drag, small speed range, factors pointed out in the report. Was he even aware of the slats "clacking", I certainly don't recall it now from my nearly six decades ago experience, it certainly wasn't a subject of the endorsement.
Last edited by megan; 2nd Mar 2019 at 04:05.
Thread Starter
The aircraft in the OP's link had slats, you can see the left plainly extended.
With only a little over seven hours in the Tiger, the pilot would have had little experience with the aircrafts characteristics, low power, high drag, small speed range, factors pointed out in the report.
The following extract is of interest from the book by Stephen Slater called De Havilland Tiger Moth 1931-1945 (all marks) Owners' Workshop Manual. Page 49-50 refers.
Quote:
"The upper wings of the majority of Tiger Moths are fitted with a further ingenious device to improve low-speed handling. Aerofoil-shaped slats (or 'slots') on the upper wings are held against the leading edge of the wing by air pressure in normal flight, but at speeds below around 60 mph(100kph) they progressively extend by 3in (75mm), encouraging the airflow to remain attached over the top surface of the outer wing, thereby slightly delaying the stall and making it more gentle when it occurs.
The slats which can be manually locked closed by a control on the right side of the rear cockpit, to avoid sudden deployment during aerobatics or unnecessary wear and tear when taxiing - were developed by another British aircraft designer, Sir Frederick Handley-Page. In addition to the cost of the slats and their controls, de Havilland had to pay a royalty of 38 pounds eleven shillings and sixpence on every set fitted as an extra cost option on pre-war Tiger Moths. However, all RAF-specification aeroplanes had them fitted." Unquote.
I have several hundred hours in the Tiger Moth and all of them with the slats locked. If the lack of wind in your face does not give you an idea of speed and the view does not tell you something about the AoA then you probably should not be flying one.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whenever the conversation touches Tiger Moths and spins I can't help thinking of this photo:
https://www.waggabiketyres.com/The%20Canon%201.jpg
https://www.waggabiketyres.com/The%20Canon%201.jpg
Reading his exploits I reckon the guy has nine lives.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have several hundred hours in the Tiger Moth
I think it’s been shown this aircraft had slats so it’s a moot point if they save lives. Apparently not in this case. Of more interest is that the minimum type training required by this company was 5 hours. The accident pilot had less than this. The minimum tailwheel time required by the operator and by the insurance company was 25 hours. The accident pilot had less than this. The full length of the runway was not useable due to long grass. No lawnmower? The pilot made a substantial turn to the left 2 seconds after take off followed by a turn back to the right to give more time to gain height to fly over obstacles. The young pilot had no supervision or help on this day, he had to get out of this aircraft with the motor running twice.
Last edited by Cloudee; 4th Mar 2019 at 06:30.
If anything it shows you that an accident has many facets and can be days or weeks or months in the making.
None of the following are a clear cause but have contributed in a small part
None of the following are a clear cause but have contributed in a small part
- low time on type
- tall grass preventing use of full length
- gusty wind conditions
- questionable turns right after take off
If anything it shows you that an accident has many facets and can be days or weeks or months in the making.
None of the following are a clear cause but have contributed in a small part
None of the following are a clear cause but have contributed in a small part
- low time on type
- tall grass preventing use of full length
- gusty wind conditions
- questionable turns right after take off
If you have a crack in the varnish, fuel can get into the cork, as it heats up it will expand and may result in the float sticking causing a rich or lean mixture.
I think it’s been shown this aircraft had slats so it’s a moot point if they save lives. Apparently not in this case.
Unfortunately too, spin training is no longer part of the curriculum, few aircraft are cleared for spinning.
https://www.aopa.org/-/media/files/a...spin.pdf?la=en
Not stated to date is that, as I recall, the pilot, although a new graduate to the Tiger Moth, had recently flown a Cirrus SR-22 around the world.
A big difference in the handling of a DH82 Tiger Moth and a Cirrus CR-22.
A big difference in the handling of a DH82 Tiger Moth and a Cirrus CR-22.