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ATSB Report on Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident

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ATSB Report on Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident

Old 19th Mar 2019, 20:05
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I guess we now wait for the coronial inquest. Does anyone know how long it takes from the report released by the ATSB till the inquest is scheduled?
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 14:14
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I would normally leave the slats unlocked for takeoff and landing, unless the crosswind was near the limit.
That was the correct procedure taught at RAAF flying training schools in the 1950's. However there was nothing about crosswinds and associated slat use in the Pilots Notes for the type. Methinks it sounds like someone's personal opinion rather than the manufacturer's recommended procedure? .
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 18:29
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Originally Posted by Judd
That was the correct procedure taught at RAAF flying training schools in the 1950's. However there was nothing about crosswinds and associated slat use in the Pilots Notes for the type. Methinks it sounds like someone's personal opinion rather than the manufacturer's recommended procedure? .
You are correct the RAAF pilot notes state slats are to be unlocked for takeoff and landing. However the aircraft were never operated on sealed runways and were fitted with tail skids and had no brakes, this resulted in them being very limited in any crosswind. The Tigers I flew commercially all had brakes and tailwheels and often flown in crosswinds at the limit. After a few near wing tip scrapes during early takeoff roll / late landing roll, I found locking the slats reduced the tendency to lift a wing. Part of my Tiger pre takeoff and landing checks involves considering slats locked / unlocked based on observed crosswind.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 06:46
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Fuel contamination

Although fuel analysis revealed no indication of water, it was always the RAF practice to fill Chipmunk fuel tanks completely at the end of the day’s flying to avoid condensation within the tanks collecting st the bottom. By the pilots own admission, this was never done with his aircraft so could water droplets have entered the carburettor during the take off and caused the loss in power.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 10:26
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Originally Posted by Nuasea
Although fuel analysis revealed no indication of water, it was always the RAF practice to fill Chipmunk fuel tanks completely at the end of the day’s flying to avoid condensation within the tanks collecting st the bottom. By the pilots own admission, this was never done with his aircraft so could water droplets have entered the carburettor during the take off and caused the loss in power.
All good in theory, except that in this day and age leaving an aircraft full of fuel overnight just increases the likelyhood that your fuel will go missing overnight. As to whether it could have been a factor, well of course it "could" have been....as could an awful lot of other things. Which is why we have ATSB investigators whose job it is to mull it over.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:39
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Originally Posted by desert goat


All good in theory, except that in this day and age leaving an aircraft full of fuel overnight just increases the likelyhood that your fuel will go missing overnight. As to whether it could have been a factor, well of course it "could" have been....as could an awful lot of other things. Which is why we have ATSB investigators whose job it is to mull it over.
You are very dismissive of a known fact they may not have considered.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 23:42
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Carb Iciing

Did the ATSB consider carb icing? What was the temperature and humidity?
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 00:02
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Calculate carb icing CAA

temp was around 24C. Dew point unknown.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/file...cing_chart.pdf
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 02:40
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What are you trying to prove?
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 17:26
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Carb icing

Originally Posted by j3pipercub
What are you trying to prove?
Eliminate carb icing as the cause of the loss of engine power.
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Old 23rd Mar 2019, 00:46
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Well, if you wish to involve yourself in the investigation then here is some information as to how you can best go about it.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/about_atsb/employment/
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Old 23rd Mar 2019, 01:10
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Did the ATSB consider carb icing? What was the temperature and humidity?
No need to. The Gipsy in the Tiger runs on "hot" air all the time, there is no "carb air hot/cold" selector.
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Old 23rd Mar 2019, 02:04
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Carb air icing

Originally Posted by megan
No need to. The Gipsy in the Tiger runs on "hot" air all the time, there is no "carb air hot/cold" selector.
Thank you for the information but note that hot air is not available at full power, see NZ incident that follows

Last edited by Nuasea; 24th Mar 2019 at 01:46. Reason: additional info
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Old 23rd Mar 2019, 02:14
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There was a similar accident in NZ a few years ago and this was their comment on the carburettor:

”The Gypsy Major engine employs automatic carburettor heat, in the form of a spring-loaded butterfly valve, interconnected with the throttle control so that at full throttle cold air is admitted, but at cruise, warm air from the engine bay is admitted through a flame trap. The spring applies 4-5 kg of load to keep the valve in the warm air position in cruise. If the throttle friction nut is not firmly applied before take-off, the spring will cause the throttle to back off if the pilot’s hand is removed from it.”
https://www.caa.govt.nz/Accidents_an..._18Oct2003.pdf
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 06:10
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Devil

The following has absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject of the thread, but some fellow ppruners may find it interesting;

As I type this there is a glass of a good Barossa Shiraz in front of me.. oh yes, and my late Father's RAAF log book.

On the first page it notes that he flew his first solo at No 1 EFTS Parafield, in DH 82 AM-624 on August 9th 1943, having previously logged 10hrs 50 minutes Flying Instruction time. His Instructor was for the most part a F/O Craven.

I remember Dad telling me that he sang out loud to himself for the entire circuit!

I also remember one of his favourite sayings which related across to being a Glider Instructor many years later was,
I saw him crash, I saw him burn.
He held off bank in a Gliding turn.



His relation of the story of the Yankee Marauder Pilot who crashed his aircraft off the end of one runway is a story for another thread.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 23:19
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In my younger days in Tigers and Austers I was always told "Hold off bank in a gliding turn, and you will surely crash and burn." It must have taken a lot of lives to produce that little rhyme, it is surely one that was written in blood.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 08:22
  #57 (permalink)  
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Tigermoth can comfortably be flown in S and L at 30 knots or less by a pilot with sufficient training on type by an instructor with knowledge and experience on type.
Wouldn't the position error at that angle of attack make the IAS an unreliable indication of the real airspeed?
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:18
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Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot
On the first page it notes that he flew his first solo at No 1 EFTS Parafield, in DH 82 AM-624 on August 9th 1943, having previously logged 10hrs 50 minutes Flying Instruction time. His Instructor was for the most part a F/O Craven.

I also remember one of his favourite sayings which related across to being a Glider Instructor many years later was,
I saw him crash, I saw him burn.
He held off bank in a Gliding turn.
I remember that rhyme!

Slightly different wording: "watch him spin, watch him burn, held off bank in a gliding turn". I still tell some of my students it, so it lives on.

It was told to me by my father, when I was learning to fly.

Reading your post and that long remembered rhyme made me hunt up his log book.

He did his first solo in A17-451 after being sent by F/O Stevens. Most of his training was by Sgt Irvine.
(10 EFTS Temora, Nov 1942.)

It took him 5 minutes longer than yours though. Dad needed 10:55 dual
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 19:40
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Originally Posted by Centaurus
Wouldn't the position error at that angle of attack make the IAS an unreliable indication of the real airspeed?
not necessarily. The tiger will become airborne at about 25 knots and you are know where near a 3 point attitude. How ever, there is some merit to what you say at high angles of attack. At IAS of about 28knots or less at high AOA the the instrument can read zero.
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