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ATSB Report on Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident

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ATSB Report on Tiger Moth stall/spin fatal accident

Old 8th Mar 2019, 05:21
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A number of concerns.


It has been pointed out by a few posters regarding the pilot having very little time on type, the weather conditions and some interesting manoeuvres after takeoff.




in regards to slats, as the person whom started the thread stated. Yes slats are in the POH as a stall warning device. They also assist in decreasing the published power off stall speed by 2 or 3 knots, depending on the rigging of the tiger moth. The stall speed with power on is published at 25knots and a Tigermoth can comfortably be flown in S and L at 30 knots or less by a pilot with sufficient training on type by an instructor with knowledge and experience on type. Also in contradiction of the initial post, war time tigers built in Australia were supplied with slats. They were not an after market option as suggested.




the ATSB, after approx 40 months have returned some interesting facts.




Fact 1. A minimum of 5 hours training was required by the operator in the ops manual. The operator claims that they operate to a charter standard. Firstly the minimum requirements for charter is 10hours on type, and, secondary the pilot had less than 5 hours training on type and less than 10hours total time on type. Further research beyond the ATSB report will find that the person doing the training held a PPL and the training was pre part 61. (Meaning a ppl could not hold an instructor rating.)




Fact 2. The insurance company required time on tail Wheel was 25hours minimum. The pilot was performing duties with less than the required 25hours. (One would assume that this has rendered the insurance void.)




Fact 3. The pilot performed duties autonomous with no ground crew resulting in the passenger been strapped in and alone on the aircraft with the engine running on 3 occasions before take off. To pony out the obvious, this is a major breach. The question must be asked, is this an instruction from the company and considered normal operations?




Fact 4. The pilot performed a left hand turn 2 seconds after takeoff at a reported height of 20 to 40feet. (After several test and discussions with pilots having between 600+ and 8,000 hours on tigers, the height at which this turn commenced would be 8’ to 10’.) as mentioned in the ATSB report there would be little to no advantage in gain of altitude by these turns. (Furthermore, some comments from high time instructors, were, that they believed that the series of turns were a procedure turn been the precursor to a downwind ‘beatup’.)




Fact 5. The ATSB found through video footage of the flight that the wind sock was indicating 10 - 15knots down the cross strip used in the fatal flight. This is well within the limits of the planes capabilities and would result in an adequate climb rate to clear any obstacles identified within the limits of an ALA. the westpac rescue helicopter pilot stated above tree level albeit, about an hour later that it was 30-35knots above tree level. It should also be noted that Coolangatta was diverting flights due strong winds.




Fact 6. The pilot stated that he had used the cross strip many times before. This statement is quite interesting as the pilot had a total of less that 8 hours on type at that aerodrome. Is many 10 times, 30 times or more than 50?




the ATSB report has raised some serious concerns with either the system in place and approved by CASA to a self administration body, or rather the operators gross misconduct after performing inadequate training to meet their own operations manual and not ensuring the pilot meets the minimum standard for the insurance.




this accident is tainted with gross misconduct by several parties with the result being grievous bodily harm resulting in the death of an innocent passenger and serious injury’s to the young pilot.




you can continue talking about slats and the unsafe nature of a classic trainer, or, draw your own conclusions by reading the report in full. Either way, our industry has experienced another set back and a tragic loss of life which should not have even occurred.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 06:16
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Originally Posted by fatboywings

Firstly the minimum requirements for charter is 10hours on type
Are you sure about that?
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 06:56
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Yes. The minimum time on type is 10hours. Also when you state a minimum time of training on type, that should be done not a lesser amount.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 11:33
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and 8,000 hours on tigers,
That must surely be a world record if true..
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 17:58
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Originally Posted by Centaurus
That must surely be a world record if true..
it would be close, probably highest time still alive. He is 90+ years old and did a lot of training back in the day. He was also an ATO with 14,000 flight test in his log books when he retired.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 18:11
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fatboywings:

Post #21 is spot-on!
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 19:19
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Yes. The minimum time on type is 10hours.
Fatboywings,
you will find CAO 82.1 Para 4 stipulates minimum experience on type for Charter operations on Multi-engine aircraft and SE Turbine aircraft. These requirements are 5 hours time on type for VFR ops and 10 hours time on type for IFR. If the aircraft was operating under AWAL "Adventure Flight" rules, I am not familiar with those to comment.

The above notwithstanding, you make some excellent points about the wider organisational factors that contributed to the accident. Good post.
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Old 8th Mar 2019, 23:25
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Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower
Fatboywings,
you will find CAO 82.1 Para 4 stipulates minimum experience on type for Charter operations on Multi-engine aircraft and SE Turbine aircraft. These requirements are 5 hours time on type for VFR ops and 10 hours time on type for IFR. If the aircraft was operating under AWAL "Adventure Flight" rules, I am not familiar with those to comment.

The above notwithstanding, you make some excellent points about the wider organisational factors that contributed to the accident. Good post.
hi,
i stand corrected. Thankyou
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 01:07
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They were not an after market option as suggested
Slats were an option available to the purchaser for a new build aircraft ie when you placed your order with de Havilland. But I'm sure it would not be beyond the abilities of an organisation to convert a non slatted aircraft into one so fitted.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 02:20
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Originally Posted by megan
Slats were an option available to the purchaser for a new build aircraft ie when you placed your order with de Havilland. But I'm sure it would not be beyond the abilities of an organisation to convert a non slatted aircraft into one so fitted.
the previous sentence states that wartime tigers were fitted with slats. For those tigers built at Mascot they were not an aftermarket option.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 04:24
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For those tigers built at Mascot they were not an aftermarket option
All the Australian built Tigers were for the RAAF, save 18 for the USAAF and 41 for the RIAF, and the purchasers opted for slats. Slats were never offered as an after market option by any Tiger manufacturer that I'm aware.

From 1931 article -
The following special equipment is supplied at extra cost when it is desired to use the machine for duties other training:— Ten-gallon auxiliary petrol tank (larger auxiliary tanks can be supplied at the expense of other load); bomb racks to carry four 20-lb. bombs, complete with release gear ; bomb sight ; camera gun ; gun sight ;Marconi A.D. 22 wireless apparatus ; P. 14 camera with slides and envelopes ; parachutes ; Handley-Page automatic wing tip slots ; slot-locking device, operated from cockpit ;metal airscrew ; navigation lighting ; turn indicator ;drinking-water tank ; ration boxes; floats
My mount, courtesy of owner John Henderson, was the 78th aircraft off the Mascot line.


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Old 9th Mar 2019, 04:50
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Originally Posted by megan
All the Australian built Tigers were for the RAAF, save 18 for the USAAF and 41 for the RIAF, and the purchasers opted for slats. Slats were never offered as an after market option by any Tiger manufacturer that I'm aware.

From 1931 article -

My mount, courtesy of owner John Henderson, was the 78th aircraft off the Mascot line.


nice mount. To clear things up, yes all Australian tigers were built with slats, this was standard for Australian tigers no options were given. We also had a ply leading edge not a false rib and GM built engines. We had no choice.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 05:21
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Originally Posted by megan
All the Australian built Tigers were for the RAAF, save 18 for the USAAF and 41 for the RIAF, and the purchasers opted for slats. Slats were never offered as an after market option by any Tiger manufacturer that I'm aware.

From 1931 article -

My mount, courtesy of owner John Henderson, was the 78th aircraft off the Mascot line.


VH-UEQ is still flying in South Australia. It has been flying quite safely without slats for many years I’m told.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 08:18
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Originally Posted by Cloudee

VH-UEQ is still flying in South Australia. It has been flying quite safely without slats for many years I’m told.
I hate to say this but seriously that is such a wide generalisation as to be worthless.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 08:23
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Thanks for the feedback. I could say that the premise of this thread was then similarly worthless given it appears the aircraft in question did have slats.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 03:08
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bomb racks to carry four 20-lb. bombs, complete with release gear ;
Back in the 1961 era I had a RAAF staff job in Victoria Barracks St Kilda Rd, Melbourne. The then Command Flight Manuals officer was Sqn Ldr Basil Rachinger DFC. He won the DFC in England during WW2. He told of the time he was in England in 1944 and was sent on a Survival Course in Kent. He and a couple of others were dropped off by truck in the countryside and given 48 hours to find their way back to home base. Because of the threat of German paratroops landing in Kent, all road sign posts had been removed so the survivors had to somehow navigate their way back home. Basil was creeping along hedges and avoiding people when he saw an RAFaerodrome and noticed a Tiger Moth in a hangar. The Tiger Moth was fitted with small bombs under the wings to drop on enemy troops if needed. There was no guard to be seen. That evening Basil and another pilot stole the Tiger Moth.. They eventually landed at an airfield close to their base. As the Moth rolled to a stop, an ATC bloke followed them in his jeep firing red verey lights. The word had got around that someone had pinched a Tiger Moth and bases were alerted.

As soon as the Tiger Moth stopped on the airfield, the two occupants hopped out and ran away, leaving the Tiger Moth engine running. It started to move under its own power. The ATC was torn between chasing the fugitives or chasing the Tiger Moth before it ran into something. At the same time two RAF Mosquito fighter bombers were returning from a mission over Occupied France and had to go around because of the pilotless bombed-up Tiger Moth going in circles on the field. The two fugitives finally arrived back to their base and were arrested for stealing His Majesty's aircraft - namely the Tiger Moth.
A most unlikely senior officer turned up at their Courts Martial and gave evidence that as CO of the Tiger Moth airfield he had objected having a bombed up Tiger Moth in his care. He had lodged objections to the Air Ministry saying it would be easy for anyone to pinch the Tiger Moth and drop its bombs on anyone. The Air Ministry had overruled his objection and left the bombed up Tiger Moth with no guard.

Now that two RAF pilots on the run during a survival exercise had proved how easy it was to steal the Moth and fly away, it could have been escaped German prisoners of war that swiped the Moth and set sail for Germany.
The Court of Inquiry dropped all charges.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 08:14
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And so they should have...……

The officers concerned simply 'showed initiative'...….IMHO...

Cheers..
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 08:59
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Devil

The officers concerned simply 'showed initiative'.
Isn't such a thing (showing initiative) positively discouraged in some circles of Aviation Griffo?

Btw, how are ya Mate?
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 09:10
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Still Vertical Mr Pinks….Still Vertical……..
CHEERSSS.....
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 21:17
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I cannot see anywhere in the thread or report any mention of the slats being lockable. Although the slats are designed to automatically deploy at high angles of attack, they can be locked with a control in the rear cockpit, which is SOP for aerobatics. I would normally leave the slats unlocked for takeoff and landing, unless the crosswind was near the limit.
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