RA Instructor rating before CPL?
The most junior-burger of RAAus Instructors will likely have no less than 150hrs TT (minimum 20hrs dual to get RPC + 100hrs PIC + 20hr dual instructor training +/- additional hours for PAX, Cross-country, BFRs, and other endorsements along the way). Not much, agreed - but on par with CASA G3 instructors given that the RAAus Syllabus is limited to Class G ops only.
The big difference I would see though is the junior G3 must have obtained a commercial pilot's licence rather than a RPC or RPL, prior to even commencing the FI course.
The FI course involves around 50hrs on top of the CPL (and significantly more than 50 hrs ground school training).
I would expect (hope!) the G3 would be trained and have been tested to a higher level than the RA instructor.
Doesn't mean an RA instructor cannot be good, just the hurdles/standards required to be met are higher for a G3.
In the end it’s all about the pilot achieving the competency required. In my experience the vast majority of schools do just that and the vast majority of students are happy with their instructors. There may be the odd rip-off merchant, but there are also students out there with inflated views of their ability.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brisbane
Age: 43
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I have my RPL with controlled airspace, controlled aerodrome, nav and several hours post RPL flying my own plane and recently inquired about moving up to PPL. It was going to be a lot more than 3.5 hours.
Is this the same school that gave you the RPL, because that sounds a bit much with the endorsements you have. Will they do it in your aircraft? Get the exam out of the way first and then ask around.
With what you have above, what is the difference between your RPL and a PPL?
W&B? What else?? I have no idea why it would be *any* hours....??
Having an RPC with nav endorsements does not mean you should just be issued a PPL - you have to meet the CASA standards for a PPL, (the typical PPL training syllabus is around 30 hours on top of RPL standard).
I think for PPL you will need for flying side (would also need PPL(A) exam etc):
- to be at RPL skill standard in the VH aircraft (ie would need assessment flight)
- 2hrs BIF
- at least one solo navigation flight of 150nm with 2 landings away from departure field (I assume this can be completed in RA)
- to have a minimum of 5hrs solo nav time (I assume can have in RA)
- pass a PPL flight test (which would involve flight into controlled airspace or simulation of controlled airspace). It would be unlikely for a school to do a PPL flight test without making sure you are at the required standard so you would need a nav assessment flight before the test.
standards for RPL and PPL would be in part 61 MOS. The GA school will have to sign off that you are at those standards.
My opinion - I would think the hours needed would be highly individual.
It depends on the pilot's ability to meet the CASA competency standards in the VH aircraft being used and on the standard of RA training.
I could imagine at a minimum, one pilot could hop into the VH aircraft and do an assessment flight, acing it and demonstrating appropriate ability at RPL level in a 1 hour flight, then do a navigation assessment flight (CTA, lost procedures, diversions, low level, operate at CTAF and controlled aerodrome) of say 2.5 hours and ace that (would be busy flight). Then on the basis of that do a PPL flight test of 2.5 hours (which they pass) so total around 6 hours or so?
If the student is flying an RA aircraft similar to the VH aircraft and has been taught well, this should be achievable (there are some RA aircraft that have equal or higher performance than some common GA training aircraft).
However, another student with same paper qualifications might need remedial work to get to RPL standard in the VH aircraft, maybe another 5 hours because they are just not up to the new aircraft yet, have not been taught stall recovery well (1 hr remedial), have trouble landing the new aircraft (3 hours in circuit), have poor crosswind technique (another 2 hours again) etc.
After this, they then get caught out on the nav flight because they are way behind the aircraft and have been relying previously just on an EFB for navigation and have no basic fall back nav training (and maybe stuff up their controlled airspace entry, cannot maintain altitude and heading tolerances and cannot do a diversion without an EFB to help). So need another 2x2.5hr remedial navs before their flight test meaning now a total of over 12 hours This more likely if the student has been flying an aircraft with significantly lower performance than the VH aircraft or have been poorly taught. It may even be more.
Sure, not all students will need a lot of extra time but if they do, it is not always down to their lack of ability, just their previous training and aircraft experience. It can be hard to break bad habits.
I think for PPL you will need for flying side (would also need PPL(A) exam etc):
- to be at RPL skill standard in the VH aircraft (ie would need assessment flight)
- 2hrs BIF
- at least one solo navigation flight of 150nm with 2 landings away from departure field (I assume this can be completed in RA)
- to have a minimum of 5hrs solo nav time (I assume can have in RA)
- pass a PPL flight test (which would involve flight into controlled airspace or simulation of controlled airspace). It would be unlikely for a school to do a PPL flight test without making sure you are at the required standard so you would need a nav assessment flight before the test.
standards for RPL and PPL would be in part 61 MOS. The GA school will have to sign off that you are at those standards.
My opinion - I would think the hours needed would be highly individual.
It depends on the pilot's ability to meet the CASA competency standards in the VH aircraft being used and on the standard of RA training.
I could imagine at a minimum, one pilot could hop into the VH aircraft and do an assessment flight, acing it and demonstrating appropriate ability at RPL level in a 1 hour flight, then do a navigation assessment flight (CTA, lost procedures, diversions, low level, operate at CTAF and controlled aerodrome) of say 2.5 hours and ace that (would be busy flight). Then on the basis of that do a PPL flight test of 2.5 hours (which they pass) so total around 6 hours or so?
If the student is flying an RA aircraft similar to the VH aircraft and has been taught well, this should be achievable (there are some RA aircraft that have equal or higher performance than some common GA training aircraft).
However, another student with same paper qualifications might need remedial work to get to RPL standard in the VH aircraft, maybe another 5 hours because they are just not up to the new aircraft yet, have not been taught stall recovery well (1 hr remedial), have trouble landing the new aircraft (3 hours in circuit), have poor crosswind technique (another 2 hours again) etc.
After this, they then get caught out on the nav flight because they are way behind the aircraft and have been relying previously just on an EFB for navigation and have no basic fall back nav training (and maybe stuff up their controlled airspace entry, cannot maintain altitude and heading tolerances and cannot do a diversion without an EFB to help). So need another 2x2.5hr remedial navs before their flight test meaning now a total of over 12 hours This more likely if the student has been flying an aircraft with significantly lower performance than the VH aircraft or have been poorly taught. It may even be more.
Sure, not all students will need a lot of extra time but if they do, it is not always down to their lack of ability, just their previous training and aircraft experience. It can be hard to break bad habits.
Terminology check please...
Are you talking:
Recreational Pilot CERTIFICATE to PPL
or
Recreational Pilot’s LICENCE to PPL
?
Are you talking:
Recreational Pilot CERTIFICATE to PPL
or
Recreational Pilot’s LICENCE to PPL
?
Thread Starter
Alright, putting the Instructor Rating questions aside, I've got a few more questions.
I'm currently tossing up between two flight schools - Barry Foster's Woorayl Air in Leongatha (they mainly specialise in Ag flying) and Yarra Valley Aviation in Lilydale. I've had one lesson at Leongatha which went pretty well, although I was a bit put off how little time they let me control the aircraft (not sure if this is the norm or just them being conservative as it was a pretty windy day with low cloud cover). Their plan is to get me to start with an RPL flying the C-150 around then skip straight to CPL. I work three nights a week in Melbourne and would be driving up to Leongatha every week (I have family nearby I can stay with there) to fly three days a week.
Alternatively Lilydale promote the RAus route starting with the RPC then converting to GA later, they are mostly a bit pricier except for their Jabirus which are the cheapest I've seen anywhere at $110/220 solo/dual. The big advantage being it's only a twenty minute drive from my house.
Any opinions on either option? Is it worth all the extra petrol and time going up to Leongatha to take advantage of their experience (they're all multi-thousand hour pilots, do on-site maintenace and Barry is a flight examiner so no waiting around for checkrides, plus a really nice and quiet training area)? Or take the convenient option?
Cheers.
I'm currently tossing up between two flight schools - Barry Foster's Woorayl Air in Leongatha (they mainly specialise in Ag flying) and Yarra Valley Aviation in Lilydale. I've had one lesson at Leongatha which went pretty well, although I was a bit put off how little time they let me control the aircraft (not sure if this is the norm or just them being conservative as it was a pretty windy day with low cloud cover). Their plan is to get me to start with an RPL flying the C-150 around then skip straight to CPL. I work three nights a week in Melbourne and would be driving up to Leongatha every week (I have family nearby I can stay with there) to fly three days a week.
Alternatively Lilydale promote the RAus route starting with the RPC then converting to GA later, they are mostly a bit pricier except for their Jabirus which are the cheapest I've seen anywhere at $110/220 solo/dual. The big advantage being it's only a twenty minute drive from my house.
Any opinions on either option? Is it worth all the extra petrol and time going up to Leongatha to take advantage of their experience (they're all multi-thousand hour pilots, do on-site maintenace and Barry is a flight examiner so no waiting around for checkrides, plus a really nice and quiet training area)? Or take the convenient option?
Cheers.
