The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

FUEL NOTAMS

Old 20th Dec 2018, 04:16
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,252
FUEL NOTAMS

Just received the following from CASA:

"With immediate effect a NOTAM authorised originator may submit a NOTAM request advising that fuel, oil or oxygen is not available.
The NOF will now issue this type of NOTAM
The NOTAM is only required to advise the estimate or known period of time the type of fuel is not available, and contact details should further information be required.
AIP and other authorised documents will be updated early 2019"

Finally a win for common sense
YPJT is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 07:11
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,058
Originally Posted by YPJT View Post
Just received the following from CASA:

"With immediate effect a NOTAM authorised originator may submit a NOTAM request advising that fuel, oil or oxygen is not available.
The NOF will now issue this type of NOTAM
The NOTAM is only required to advise the estimate or known period of time the type of fuel is not available, and contact details should further information be required.
AIP and other authorised documents will be updated early 2019"

Finally a win for common sense
It doesn't do much. Note that says "... MAY submit a NOTAM request ..."

If there is no NOTAM re fuel not available, do you assume it is available?

No - if you have any sense.
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:26
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Age: 77
Posts: 2,705
VERY True Captain...…

No Cheers
Ex FSO GRIFFO is online now  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:37
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 1,918
Perhaps we could also have a NOTAM for the airport coffee shop hours, local UV forecast etc!
Stationair8 is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:45
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: QLD
Posts: 461
Stationair8 Iíd find that info more useful
Happy Hour times too if you donít mind
geeup is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 09:54
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,252
It doesn't do much. Note that says "... MAY submit a NOTAM request ..."
i think you are reading too much into this. Previously you could not submit a NOTAM request.

It will only be as reliable as the fuel agents through the airport operators getting the NOTAM out. Just like every other issue that may occur.

i would have thought this change might have been given something of a more positive response given the outrage I have witnessed in the past.
YPJT is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 21:22
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,058
Originally Posted by YPJT View Post
i think you are reading too much into this.
I think not.

It needs to be understood that simply because there isn't a NOTAM saying fuel NAVBL, doesn't mean fuel is available.
>
  • I don't believe CASA has the authority to mandate refuellers have NOTAM issued in the event of no fuel available;
  • Few refuellers would be "a NOTAM authorised originator";
  • Some will adopt the practice, others won't want the responsibility;
  • Others (most, in my experience) would hold the view that "if you want fuel, phone me beforehand, don't just lob up".
What may happen sooner or later is no NOTAM issued, someone assuming fuel is available and it isn't, and getting stuck into the refueller for not having a NOTAM published.

The past discussions I recall recognised that it is pilot responsibility to determine whether or not fuel is available, therefore make a phone call and don't assume anything.


CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 23:13
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Outback Australia
Posts: 329
YPJT, I am with you. This is a step in the right direction.

Captain Midnight, I disagree.

In my experience, bashing around the bush, refuellers would love the chance to avoid abuse by saying "No Avgas here". In my experience, the attitude you subscribe ("if you want fuel, phone, don't just lob up") to refuellers only pops up:
*During after hours call outs, where numptys rock up without notice and expect the red carpet.
*The pilot who turns up and (for whatever reason) take the bare minimum (the pilot who took 17 litres at Marree springs to mind. The result in this instance is the refueller doesn't cover the cost of starting the truck or driving out from town.

I disagree, strongly, with your comment "Some will adopt the practice, others won't want the responsibility". Desert Flower (and others) will attest that refuellers already hold a considerable amount of responsibility, and so the issuing of NOTAMS will become just another part of the job.
outnabout is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2018, 23:22
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tasmania and High Wollemi
Posts: 398
interesting turn around. Al Bridges from ASA point blank refused to issue notams as they were not in the Icao requirements.

how the wheel turns. Greatcoats on .... Aerodrome reporting officer or whatever called this week can raise the notam.
catseye is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 01:05
  #10 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,252
I wonder how long it will be until someone calls ahead to check fuel availability and gets the grumpy refueller saying "If I didn't have fuel I would have f**king NOTAMed it"

As Brian said to the lepper "There's just no pleasing some people"
YPJT is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 01:50
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,058
I disagree, strongly, with your comment "Some will adopt the practice, others won't want the responsibility".
I recall when the matter of NOTAM for fuel availability was raised at a RAPAC some 10 years ago a survey of refuellers was done (I don't know how or who were consulted), what I said above was the result, along with the opinion that pilots should phone before flight to ascertain availability.

So all I am saying is, no NOTAM don't assume fuel is available - phone first.

I suspect CASA will surround the text in AIP with similar outs i.e. "However ..." "Pilots are reminded that ..." etc.

And why wouldn't you check ahead beforehand??
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 01:57
  #12 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,252
So all I am saying is, no NOTAM don't assume fuel is available - phone first
No argument there. There are many things in my experience not being as they should at an airport that haven't been reported.
YPJT is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 02:08
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: A pothole on the information superhighway
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight View Post
I recall when the matter of NOTAM for fuel availability was raised at a RAPAC some 10 years ago a survey of refuellers was done (I don't know how or who were consulted), what I said above was the result, along with the opinion that pilots should phone before flight to ascertain availability.

So all I am saying is, no NOTAM don't assume fuel is available - phone first.

I suspect CASA will surround the text in AIP with similar outs i.e. "However ..." "Pilots are reminded that ..." etc.

And why wouldn't you check ahead beforehand??
I agree. Some might do it some might not, if there isn't a NOTAM you can't assume fuel is available.

Common sense says phone ahead, as well as being common courtesy.
Piston_Broke is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 03:45
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 2,119
will attest that refuellers already hold a considerable amount of responsibility, and so the issuing of NOTAMS will become just another part of the job
What responsibility would that be, apart from that directly involved with their business? If they are also the designated Aerodrome Reporting Officer, then issuing NOTAM is already part of that job. If they are not, then they cannot issue NOTAM.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 04:26
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,252
What responsibility would that be, apart from that directly involved with their business? If they are also the designated Aerodrome Reporting Officer, then issuing NOTAM is already part of that job. If they are not, then they cannot issue NOTAM
At most regional airports I have been at, the refueller normally has a pretty close relationship with the airport staff. If the fuel availability goes down for whatever reason, a quick phone call to airport management asking to get a NOTAM in is not really that big a problem.
YPJT is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 10:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by Piston_Broke View Post
I agree. Some might do it some might not, if there isn't a NOTAM you can't assume fuel is available.

Common sense says phone ahead, as well as being common courtesy.
NOTAMs probably help frequent users more than the pilot who passes through once in a blue moon.

If you haven't been there in months, certainly, call and find out the current fuel situation. If you fly in and refuel every day, how often should you call to check fuel is available? That's when a NOTAM will be helpful.
andrewr is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 11:41
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brisbane, Qld
Posts: 1,140
I don't see why the hatred for this, those that call ahead will still call ahead because that's what they do (I agree it's the right thing as well) those that don't will have a second chance if they check NOTAMs, this will help stop those who try to get fuel and arrive to find it isn't available from getting there in the first place and possibly then deciding to push on somewhere nearby without quite enough fuel to get more.

Also these NOTAMs will also be available for ATC I assume? "ABC, just received a NOTAM that fuel has become unavailable at your landing aerodrome", "ABC, copy your diversion due fuel, FYI fuel not available at your new diversion according to NOTAM just issued". Lots of good can come out of this and no real negative. No extra responsibilties on the Refueler, Pilot or anyone else but extra opportunity for situations to be caught before they become situations potentially.
Ixixly is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 14:02
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 2,349
We recently did Birdsville Races - several of our aircraft went out over 6 days. Phone calls were made. Quantities checked. Yeah mate we've got plenty. A C404 and a Baron turned up at Thargomindah to be told "sorry mate sold more than we thought".
Luckily, both aircraft had enough to get to the next place (hey... we're professionals and that) but a heads up from BN CEN would have helped a hell of a lot.

I am with YPJT.... this is a great thing. Good development. Well done... putting the "Service" back into AirCervixesAustralia
Horatio Leafblower is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2018, 22:49
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by Ixixly View Post
I don't see why the hatred for this,
<snip>
Where do you get "hatred" from??

All some are saying is: don't rely solely on a NOTAM being issued - it won't be compulsory for them to be issued - use common sense and make a phone call if fuel availability is critical to you.
buckshot1777 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.