AusJet Aviation/Australasian Jet in liquidation
Approximately 10,000 - B737's have been manufactured and approximately, they have produced 5,000 fatalities.
Approximately 4,000 - PA-31's were manufactured, have they produced 2,000 fatalities?
I expect it would be lucky to be a few hundred, while the 737 no doubt has accumulated more hours - the hr/cycle ratio of the PA-31's will be much higher. Of the 3 phases of flight (Takeoff/cruise/landing) the middle phase is by far the least risk of fatality. So since a PA-31 will operate in the danger zone more often than the 737, a valid case can be made it is safer than the 737.
Selective use of data is foolish - how many deaths will the 737 cause as a contributor to pollution and climate change compared to the PA-31?
I love all these companies that build empires making policies based on partial data and correctness but without understanding.
Is this the final Ausjet to fall down or is there still a "different state/territory sector operating that just got a few more aircraft to use?
Approximately 4,000 - PA-31's were manufactured, have they produced 2,000 fatalities?
I expect it would be lucky to be a few hundred, while the 737 no doubt has accumulated more hours - the hr/cycle ratio of the PA-31's will be much higher. Of the 3 phases of flight (Takeoff/cruise/landing) the middle phase is by far the least risk of fatality. So since a PA-31 will operate in the danger zone more often than the 737, a valid case can be made it is safer than the 737.
Selective use of data is foolish - how many deaths will the 737 cause as a contributor to pollution and climate change compared to the PA-31?
I love all these companies that build empires making policies based on partial data and correctness but without understanding.
Is this the final Ausjet to fall down or is there still a "different state/territory sector operating that just got a few more aircraft to use?
I doubt he will...
Not familiar with the first few listed - but PNG accidents (Kiunga) don’t discriminate by type of engine - the other factors up there are usually heaps more relevant in why accidents happen.
However:
Bathurst Island (approx 2010) - a C310 flown by a young lad most likely suffered from somatogravic illusion during a night take-off. No pax on board. Inexperienced with apparently no training from within his company for flight by night. Nothing could be found wrong with the aircraft that led to the crash, from what I heard. Most likely not the aircraft’s fault.
Macarthur River - if he means the Hardy Aviation Baron accident (pre2008), then again it doesn’t count. Nothing found wrong with the aircraft, I believe, but there was much discussion about the mental health of an occupant and by the severity of the impact, there is a school of thought that there was possibly some issue there that had nothing to do with the aircraft. Weather was fine on the day...
That’s the best I can recall from the information available at the time. Although with the resources available to Josh Cox (CASA) he might be able to provide further insight / information that we are not aware of.
Although older aircraft need to be properly taken care of, and certainly they don’t have the technology benefits of their successors, if well maintained, in well trained hands and operated within their limits these aircraft are still perfectly acceptable. Rather than focusing on the type / age of the aircraft, I reckon CASA should be looking at the quality of training around the country - as that is more to blame for the accidents we are having in industry. Josh Cox, no doubt, should also be able to rattle off dozens of examples of this without even trying too hard...
Not familiar with the first few listed - but PNG accidents (Kiunga) don’t discriminate by type of engine - the other factors up there are usually heaps more relevant in why accidents happen.
However:
Bathurst Island (approx 2010) - a C310 flown by a young lad most likely suffered from somatogravic illusion during a night take-off. No pax on board. Inexperienced with apparently no training from within his company for flight by night. Nothing could be found wrong with the aircraft that led to the crash, from what I heard. Most likely not the aircraft’s fault.
Macarthur River - if he means the Hardy Aviation Baron accident (pre2008), then again it doesn’t count. Nothing found wrong with the aircraft, I believe, but there was much discussion about the mental health of an occupant and by the severity of the impact, there is a school of thought that there was possibly some issue there that had nothing to do with the aircraft. Weather was fine on the day...
That’s the best I can recall from the information available at the time. Although with the resources available to Josh Cox (CASA) he might be able to provide further insight / information that we are not aware of.
Although older aircraft need to be properly taken care of, and certainly they don’t have the technology benefits of their successors, if well maintained, in well trained hands and operated within their limits these aircraft are still perfectly acceptable. Rather than focusing on the type / age of the aircraft, I reckon CASA should be looking at the quality of training around the country - as that is more to blame for the accidents we are having in industry. Josh Cox, no doubt, should also be able to rattle off dozens of examples of this without even trying too hard...
I doubt he will...
Not familiar with the first few listed - but PNG accidents (Kiunga) don’t discriminate by type of engine - the other factors up there are usually heaps more relevant in why accidents happen.
However:
Bathurst Island (approx 2010) - a C310 flown by a young lad most likely suffered from somatogravic illusion during a night take-off. No pax on board. Inexperienced with apparently no training from within his company for flight by night. Nothing could be found wrong with the aircraft that led to the crash, from what I heard. Most likely not the aircraft’s fault.
Macarthur River - if he means the Hardy Aviation Baron accident (pre2008), then again it doesn’t count. Nothing found wrong with the aircraft, I believe, but there was much discussion about the mental health of an occupant and by the severity of the impact, there is a school of thought that there was possibly some issue there that had nothing to do with the aircraft. Weather was fine on the day...
That’s the best I can recall from the information available at the time. Although with the resources available to Josh Cox (CASA) he might be able to provide further insight / information that we are not aware of.
Although older aircraft need to be properly taken care of, and certainly they don’t have the technology benefits of their successors, if well maintained, in well trained hands and operated within their limits these aircraft are still perfectly acceptable. Rather than focusing on the type / age of the aircraft, I reckon CASA should be looking at the quality of training around the country - as that is more to blame for the accidents we are having in industry. Josh Cox, no doubt, should also be able to rattle off dozens of examples of this without even trying too hard...
Bendy
Not doubting you but Josh Cox's original response was in relation to this assertion by Double Mamba:
I can think of
- MKK, Chieftain, engine failure at Marree - Pilot mishandling
- Airtex Mojave at Bankstown - Pilot mishandling
- Chieftain at Bathurst at night - Private flight
- Not sure why the Chieftain at Mt Hotham wouldn't show in the results? Was it a PVT flight? (edit: it was 2005... time flies even when your Chieftain can't)
- C310 at The Lakes/Port Macquarie - Private pilot, private flight.
- C310 at Mildura: Private Pilot, Private flight
Not doubting you but Josh Cox's original response was in relation to this assertion by Double Mamba:
When was the last time a piston twin crashed in oz with an experienced pilot up front? On a charter flight?
I can't think of any. Meanwhile Air Asia and Lion Air have lost brand new twin jets, good luck to all those consultants and business people being sent to asia on contracts.
I'll stick to my Baron thanks.
I can't think of any. Meanwhile Air Asia and Lion Air have lost brand new twin jets, good luck to all those consultants and business people being sent to asia on contracts.
I'll stick to my Baron thanks.
- MKK, Chieftain, engine failure at Marree - Pilot mishandling
- Airtex Mojave at Bankstown - Pilot mishandling
- Chieftain at Bathurst at night - Private flight
- Not sure why the Chieftain at Mt Hotham wouldn't show in the results? Was it a PVT flight? (edit: it was 2005... time flies even when your Chieftain can't)
- C310 at The Lakes/Port Macquarie - Private pilot, private flight.
- C310 at Mildura: Private Pilot, Private flight
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 2nd Dec 2018 at 22:22.
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The last Kiunga crash was a Turbine powered Islander; therefore what about the Rossair Conquest prang?
Is Cox sneaking a turbine engine powered aircraft into the equation?
Is Cox sneaking a turbine engine powered aircraft into the equation?
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AC50, near Torres,
AC50 near Clonbinane,
AC50 near Daintree,
Seneca Bankstown,
Duchess Camden,
C337 south of Kalgoorlie,
BN2 Coconut,
Queenair near Mount Garnet.
MM, you are correct, the one at Kiunga was turbine powered (Allisons?), there was a different one (which I thought was nearby, early last year), S?????? Gap ?
PA31 Whyalla, did someone already mention that one ?
AC50 near Clonbinane,
AC50 near Daintree,
Seneca Bankstown,
Duchess Camden,
C337 south of Kalgoorlie,
BN2 Coconut,
Queenair near Mount Garnet.
MM, you are correct, the one at Kiunga was turbine powered (Allisons?), there was a different one (which I thought was nearby, early last year), S?????? Gap ?
PA31 Whyalla, did someone already mention that one ?
Last edited by Josh Cox; 3rd Dec 2018 at 10:43.
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An important thing here, if you know someone is doing it tough, reach out. This industry has more than its share of C U Next Tuesday's, it doesn't need the NON-CNUT's turning on each other.
Grumman G-73 ‘Mallard’ in Perth.
what about the Rossair Conquest prang?
From Josh Cox:
AC50 near Clonbinane, Private flight, Tools/LAME not pax
AC50 near Daintree, CHTR - 3 Pax
Seneca Bankstown, - VH-CTT - Flight Training not Pax
Duchess Camden, - 2003 - JWX - Flight training/Testing not Pax
C337 south of Kalgoorlie - ATSB shows no such accident
BN2 Coconut - 1999 - AGREED.
Queenair near Mount Garnet. ATSB shows no such accident
PA31 Whyalla - AGREED - but that was RPT, and in 2001 (over 17 years ago). It's Charter that's really dangerous and RPT that's really safe, remember?
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 4th Dec 2018 at 09:24.
I can only think of the C210 near Darwin last year (or early this year) one experienced and one new pilot on board
Not everyone is scared of propellers
Thanks for the interesting debates / moaning / arguments guys. I am surprised so many out there are sticking up for the piston props!
I think this thread also shows that crashes in passenger carrying charter with experienced pilots are very rare, especially in twins as I originally surmised.
Condolences to the unlucky people mentioned but it appears many were in training, not carrying any passengers or in the private category.
TOOTLE PIP
I think this thread also shows that crashes in passenger carrying charter with experienced pilots are very rare, especially in twins as I originally surmised.
Condolences to the unlucky people mentioned but it appears many were in training, not carrying any passengers or in the private category.
TOOTLE PIP
yes - but then there are Conquest incidents categorised as "Piston" and a lot of other inconsistencies in the ATSB database. 
I expect your second line is why there are so many out there sticking up for piston props.
Agree, I have seen some complete rubbish published there.
Anyway, the point is that the Mallard was definitely not a charter!
Anyway, the point is that the Mallard was definitely not a charter!