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AusJet Aviation / Australasian Jet in liquidation

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AusJet Aviation / Australasian Jet in liquidation

Old 2nd Dec 2018, 05:01
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Approximately 10,000 - B737's have been manufactured and approximately, they have produced 5,000 fatalities.

Approximately 4,000 - PA-31's were manufactured, have they produced 2,000 fatalities?

I expect it would be lucky to be a few hundred, while the 737 no doubt has accumulated more hours - the hr/cycle ratio of the PA-31's will be much higher. Of the 3 phases of flight (Takeoff/cruise/landing) the middle phase is by far the least risk of fatality. So since a PA-31 will operate in the danger zone more often than the 737, a valid case can be made it is safer than the 737.

Selective use of data is foolish - how many deaths will the 737 cause as a contributor to pollution and climate change compared to the PA-31?

I love all these companies that build empires making policies based on partial data and correctness but without understanding.

Is this the final Ausjet to fall down or is there still a "different state/territory sector operating that just got a few more aircraft to use?
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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 12:35
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower View Post
Care to expand on that?.
I doubt he will...

Not familiar with the first few listed - but PNG accidents (Kiunga) donít discriminate by type of engine - the other factors up there are usually heaps more relevant in why accidents happen.

However:

Bathurst Island (approx 2010) - a C310 flown by a young lad most likely suffered from somatogravic illusion during a night take-off. No pax on board. Inexperienced with apparently no training from within his company for flight by night. Nothing could be found wrong with the aircraft that led to the crash, from what I heard. Most likely not the aircraftís fault.

Macarthur River - if he means the Hardy Aviation Baron accident (pre2008), then again it doesnít count. Nothing found wrong with the aircraft, I believe, but there was much discussion about the mental health of an occupant and by the severity of the impact, there is a school of thought that there was possibly some issue there that had nothing to do with the aircraft. Weather was fine on the day...

Thatís the best I can recall from the information available at the time. Although with the resources available to Josh Cox (CASA) he might be able to provide further insight / information that we are not aware of.

Although older aircraft need to be properly taken care of, and certainly they donít have the technology benefits of their successors, if well maintained, in well trained hands and operated within their limits these aircraft are still perfectly acceptable. Rather than focusing on the type / age of the aircraft, I reckon CASA should be looking at the quality of training around the country - as that is more to blame for the accidents we are having in industry. Josh Cox, no doubt, should also be able to rattle off dozens of examples of this without even trying too hard...

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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 13:12
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Bear View Post


I doubt he will...

Not familiar with the first few listed - but PNG accidents (Kiunga) donít discriminate by type of engine - the other factors up there are usually heaps more relevant in why accidents happen.

However:

Bathurst Island (approx 2010) - a C310 flown by a young lad most likely suffered from somatogravic illusion during a night take-off. No pax on board. Inexperienced with apparently no training from within his company for flight by night. Nothing could be found wrong with the aircraft that led to the crash, from what I heard. Most likely not the aircraftís fault.

Macarthur River - if he means the Hardy Aviation Baron accident (pre2008), then again it doesnít count. Nothing found wrong with the aircraft, I believe, but there was much discussion about the mental health of an occupant and by the severity of the impact, there is a school of thought that there was possibly some issue there that had nothing to do with the aircraft. Weather was fine on the day...

Thatís the best I can recall from the information available at the time. Although with the resources available to Josh Cox (CASA) he might be able to provide further insight / information that we are not aware of.

Although older aircraft need to be properly taken care of, and certainly they donít have the technology benefits of their successors, if well maintained, in well trained hands and operated within their limits these aircraft are still perfectly acceptable. Rather than focusing on the type / age of the aircraft, I reckon CASA should be looking at the quality of training around the country - as that is more to blame for the accidents we are having in industry. Josh Cox, no doubt, should also be able to rattle off dozens of examples of this without even trying too hard...

Mate while not a charter we are missing a Airvan in that neck of woods.
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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 16:51
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Bendy
Not doubting you but Josh Cox's original response was in relation to this assertion by Double Mamba:
When was the last time a piston twin crashed in oz with an experienced pilot up front? On a charter flight?
I can't think of any. Meanwhile Air Asia and Lion Air have lost brand new twin jets, good luck to all those consultants and business people being sent to asia on contracts.

I'll stick to my Baron thanks.
I can think of
- MKK, Chieftain, engine failure at Marree - Pilot mishandling
- Airtex Mojave at Bankstown - Pilot mishandling
- Chieftain at Bathurst at night - Private flight
- Not sure why the Chieftain at Mt Hotham wouldn't show in the results? Was it a PVT flight? (edit: it was 2005... time flies even when your Chieftain can't)
- C310 at The Lakes/Port Macquarie - Private pilot, private flight.
- C310 at Mildura: Private Pilot, Private flight

Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 2nd Dec 2018 at 23:22.
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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 19:02
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Seneca in Broome. Chieftain at Lilydale.
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Old 2nd Dec 2018, 21:32
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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- Airtex Mojave at Bankstown - Pilot mishandling
Pretty sure that was Airwork...
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 05:40
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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The last Kiunga crash was a Turbine powered Islander; therefore what about the Rossair Conquest prang?

Is Cox sneaking a turbine engine powered aircraft into the equation?
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:21
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Grumman G-73 ‘Mallard’ in Perth.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:30
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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AC50, near Torres,
AC50 near Clonbinane,
AC50 near Daintree,
Seneca Bankstown,
Duchess Camden,
C337 south of Kalgoorlie,
BN2 Coconut,
Queenair near Mount Garnet.

MM, you are correct, the one at Kiunga was turbine powered (Allisons?), there was a different one (which I thought was nearby, early last year), S?????? Gap ?

PA31 Whyalla, did someone already mention that one ?

Last edited by Josh Cox; 3rd Dec 2018 at 11:43.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 11:56
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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So when was "the last piston aircraft charter fatal crash with an experienced pilot" as in date.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 20:43
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
So when was "the last piston aircraft charter fatal crash with an experienced pilot" as in date.
I can only think of the C210 near Darwin last year (or early this year) one experienced and one new pilot on board
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 21:36
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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An important thing here, if you know someone is doing it tough, reach out. This industry has more than its share of C U Next Tuesday's, it doesn't need the NON-CNUT's turning on each other.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 23:20
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Grumman G-73 ‘Mallard’ in Perth.
Private Pilot, Private ops.

what about the Rossair Conquest prang?
CASA was PIC. couldn't possibly be the PICs fault, they are the ultimate Authority on aviation Safety.

From Josh Cox:
AC50, near Torres FREIGHT NOT PAX the pilot, who was also the operator’s chief pilot, had either not met the recency requirements or did not have an endorsement to conduct the types of instrument approaches available at Horn Island
AC50 near Clonbinane, Private flight, Tools/LAME not pax
AC50 near Daintree, CHTR - 3 Pax
Seneca Bankstown, - VH-CTT - Flight Training not Pax
Duchess Camden, - 2003 - JWX - Flight training/Testing not Pax
C337 south of Kalgoorlie - ATSB shows no such accident
BN2 Coconut - 1999 - AGREED.
Queenair near Mount Garnet. ATSB shows no such accident

PA31 Whyalla - AGREED - but that was RPT, and in 2001 (over 17 years ago). It's Charter that's really dangerous and RPT that's really safe, remember?

Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 4th Dec 2018 at 10:24.
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Old 3rd Dec 2018, 23:30
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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I know it is listed as a Charter Flight, but I would have called it a Training Flight.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 00:57
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I can only think of the C210 near Darwin last year (or early this year) one experienced and one new pilot on board
....why on earth would you fly a C210 through a towering CU (or CB?) in Darwin in October?.... or ever?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 01:19
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Not everyone is scared of propellers

Thanks for the interesting debates / moaning / arguments guys. I am surprised so many out there are sticking up for the piston props!
I think this thread also shows that crashes in passenger carrying charter with experienced pilots are very rare, especially in twins as I originally surmised.
Condolences to the unlucky people mentioned but it appears many were in training, not carrying any passengers or in the private category.
TOOTLE PIP
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 03:45
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Checkboard View Post
Grumman G-73 ‘Mallard’ in Perth.
Aerial work, according to ATSB report.
"The investigation has not identified any evidence to indicate that pilot incapacitation or aircraft serviceability were contributing factors to the collision with water"
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 04:08
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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yes - but then there are Conquest incidents categorised as "Piston" and a lot of other inconsistencies in the ATSB database.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 04:46
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by doublemamba View Post
I am surprised so many out there are sticking up for the piston props!
I think this thread also shows that crashes in passenger carrying charter with experienced pilots are very rare.
I expect your second line is why there are so many out there sticking up for piston props.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 04:48
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Agree, I have seen some complete rubbish published there.

Anyway, the point is that the Mallard was definitely not a charter!
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