RFDS Pilatus PC24

[Captain Nomad]

Sorry FGD, I didn't realise you were privy to all the flight planning timings... No doubt the flexibility of being able to go Kununurra - Darwin or Kununurra - Perth (non-stop) with an increased capacity of three stretchers is a 'miniscule' saving of time and resources also...

The East Coast equivalent of what you are arguing is that it would be best to have a jet based in Melbourne for medical emergencies taking place in Queensland...

There are times where having the medical crew onsite sooner rather than later is beneficial as others have already highlighted. If you saw the abilities of some of those places to actually perform the 'stabilisation' you are so confident happens so easily, with plenty of time to spare, it might change the perspective a little.

Even for serious cases ex-Broome I would rather have my family in a jet already heading south rather than waiting for the equivalent of a jet to be launched from Melbourne while I was waiting in Townsville for it to arrive...

The big picture is patient outcomes. The whole purpose of having an air ambulance is to cut down crucial transport time to specialist care. Surely an asset that offers the ability to reduce that time should be met with greater approval rather than maligned with the negativity pervading what could be a more positive thread.

Australia, home of the tall-poppy cutting master craftsmen...

[VH-MLE]

The bottom line IMHO is that whether both both/all (considering a third is a strong possibility) jets are based at JT, or split between JT & BRM, patient transport/outcomes will be significantly enhanced either way. To me, having one based in BRM is a logical step for the reasons already spelt out by many so far.

Sorry FGD, while I understand what you're saying regarding the potential financial efficiencies of basing all jets in Perth, you do seem to have a "bee in your bonnet" about it & I'm not sure why. I know the WA Health Dep't want a stronger RFDS presence in the Kimberley & the planned crew/aircraft allocation should satisfy that requirement...

Just my 2 lire worth...

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by FGD135

Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).

I actually before posting checked the rents in Broome and Port Headland - that was why I replyed 4 Houses in Port will get you 5 in Broome - I did not think but worked of fact!

Now do me just one favor list the perks with the costs ( I will allow your extra house numbers from your original - but do not believe them) to show the $500,000 extra you now claim.

My research would put it at around $100,000 pa over a 3 year budget average extra - give or take $50,000 - on Jandakot staff.

Is a simple request.

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by FGD135

Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).

There is no justification for transfers to Darwin from the Kimberley with the jet. The time saved is miniscule. The transfer from Kununurra for example, would take 45 minutes in the jet, versus 60 minutes in the PC-12. 60 and 96 from Halls Creek. And those patients would be already stabilised, thus reducing the need for expediency. No justification.

Still waiting to see your "redo" numbers (including all perks)

Justifications have been made - you refuse to accept them - even given cases that have happened.

[FGD135]

Now do me just one favor list the perks with the costs ... to show the $500,000 extra you now claim.

You came up with $20K per pilot per year in perks. That is $100K per year for just the pilots. Now what about the nurses and doctors? The pilots would be the low men on the totem pole. The nurses and doctors would be on more.

The nurses would be on 1.2 - 1.5 times the pilot's salary, conditions and perks. Reasonable? For the doctors, it could easily be 2-3 times. Reasonable? I once heard that the remote RFDS doctors were on packages that were north of $300K pa, so I don't think unreasonable. Let's be generous and call it 1.5 times for this particular group of doctors and nurses, so that makes $150K pa for the nurse and doctor perks.

The annual rental for all the houses would be about $280K, so adding these three figures together (100K, 150K, 280K) gives us $530,000 for the year.

No doubt the flexibility of being able to go ... Kununurra - Perth (non-stop) with an increased capacity of three stretchers is a 'miniscule' saving of time and resources also...

Hopelessly misrepresenting my position there, Captain Nomad. That kind of trip is, in fact, exactly where the jet comes into its own. That is where the jet is well and truly justified and greatly improves the service performed by the RFDS. But we are not talking about whether the jet is justified (I believe it is) - we are talking about the Broome basing.

The East Coast equivalent of what you are arguing is that it would be best to have a jet based in Melbourne for medical emergencies taking place in Queensland...

How about you actually read what I have said? I have gone over it several times.

There are times where having the medical crew onsite sooner rather than later is beneficial as others have already highlighted.

A few minutes sooner? The most distant hospital that the jet would be going from Broome would be Kununurra (400 NM). The jet would get there in 63 minutes, as compared to 99 minutes for the PC-12. For Halls Creek, the next most distant place the jet can go, the times are 52 and 78 minutes.

So, you base a $10 million dollar jet in Broome for those once-in-a-blue-moon occasions when you can save a few minutes getting doctors to Kununurra? Sorry, I don't buy it.

The big picture is patient outcomes.

Actually, the big picture is patient outcomes for the available funding.

... the negativity pervading what could be a more positive thread.

Perhaps those starry eyes would rather look the other way when waste and inefficiency come into view. Perhaps the beholder believes bureaucrats always know what they're doing and always make the right decisions - and that such decisions are always free of any politics. Perhaps asking questions is a little too much negativity.

[morno]

FGD, I’ll type a more detailed response to you when I can be bothered.

But the obvious question, is this an EXTRA aircraft for Broome? Or will they be taking a PC-12 out (assuming they have more than 1 already there) when the jet arrives?

That might change a lot of your figures FGD. Because it could well mean no increase in any crew numbers.

morno

[Alice Kiwican]

I would have thought that if there is extra crew required in Broome it would just be the pilots. Couldn’t the current flight nurse’s and doctors be rostered in either the PC12 or the PC24?

[Bankstown Boy]

Awww, come on Alice! You'll spoil a good yarn by introducing such stupidities as 'logic' & 'common-sense' and other such useless frivolities.

I've been reading this thread with some amusement since it opened and I been waiting for it to draw to its inevitable conclusion that goes something along the lines of :
- as the PC24 is only a 'bit' faster than the PC12, what's the point? I mean it's not as though the block speeds are a gazillion times lower, what's the point?

My response was going to be that, as speed and modernity of the aircraft don't (apparently) matter, the RFDS could go back to the venerable de Havilland DH-50A or such similar (just as soon as someone rustles up a good price - can't waste any money don't-cha-know?).

[LeadSled]

YSBK Boy,
Love it!!
Tootle pip!!

[harrryw]

Would there be an argument for basing both in Broome as it seems most of the flights are taking people from the North to the south. ie urgencies flown from Broome to Perth and the flight returns with non urgent transfer patients to the north and is then ready for another pickup. Southern distances are shorter and maybe more suited to the south.

[Towering Q]

Bankstown Boy...are you crazy? The de Havilland DH.50?

The Baron 58 would be a much better option.

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by FGD135

You came up with $20K per pilot per year in perks. That is $100K per year for just the pilots. Now what about the nurses and doctors? The pilots would be the low men on the totem pole. The nurses and doctors would be on more.

The nurses would be on 1.2 - 1.5 times the pilot's salary, conditions and perks. Reasonable? For the doctors, it could easily be 2-3 times. Reasonable? I once heard that the remote RFDS doctors were on packages that were north of $300K pa, so I don't think unreasonable. Let's be generous and call it 1.5 times for this particular group of doctors and nurses, so that makes $150K pa for the nurse and doctor perks.

The annual rental for all the houses would be about $280K, so adding these three figures together (100K, 150K, 280K) gives us $530,000 for the year.


.

FDG I have actually asked you to list the "perks"! You failed!!

I stated that as per the RFDS EA that the pilots in Broome could get around $10,000 in a remote area allowance (because they live in a more expensive location than Perth).

I also said that they can get around $10,000 in a accommodation allowance (if they rent or own a home in Broome).

However if they use company housing they must pay 5% + 3% of total salary for rent and utilities, they will NOT get the accommodation allowance. So only $10K per pilot

My personal belief is that the pilots that live in Broome are expected to find their own accommodation.

Your doctors and nurses claims are laughable, mostly as one poster stated they just jump in any plane and do the job - don't need jet type rated doctors and nurses. But if the jet creates extra work then they might need more, but that destroys your argument completely.

Now your 5 extra pilots to fly a single crew aircraft - how many pilots are currently based in Broome? How Many will get type rated on the jet?

I would imagine the Senior Base Pilot would get a bit upset if he did not get an endorsement and very surprised if all Broome crew were not given ratings. So there may be no extra pilots or medical staff required for the jet basing in Broome even if this is an extra aircraft it would not require 5 extra pilots to crew it 24/7.

So again FDG I am interested to hear from you what "perks" you think the RFDS base pilots get or for that matter medical staff. The list of doctors in Perth north and south of $300K you would find interesting! $300K a year is not uncommon for many outside aviation.

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by harrryw

Would there be an argument for basing both in Broome as it seems most of the flights are taking people from the North to the south. ie urgencies flown from Broome to Perth and the flight returns with non urgent transfer patients to the north and is then ready for another pickup. Southern distances are shorter and maybe more suited to the south.

Under the current use of the 800 jet, up to 20% flights would be worse off with both jets based in Broome.

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by Towering Q

Bankstown Boy...are you crazy? The de Havilland DH.50?

The Baron 58 would be a much better option.

Baron 55 is cheaper - basically the same plane!

[BEACH KING]

Originally Posted by Bend alot

Baron 55 is cheaper - basically the same plane!

Pffft.
You are comparing apples to oranges with your luxurious and expensive Baron 55.

As the PC12 is a single engine aircraft, a far more logical and economical alternative is the venerable Bonanza A36!

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by BEACH KING

Pffft.
You are comparing apples to oranges with your luxurious and expensive Baron 55.

As the PC12 is a single engine aircraft, a far more logical and economical alternative is the venerable Bonanza A36!

The V Tail allows the ambulance to get closer for loading of the 3 stretchers. A cargo pod could also be a cheap option for a 4th stretcher.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And a 5th and 6th stretcher ….one on each wing....or UNDER it...…Gotta get that darned 'lift' from somewhere.....

Mind the breeze dear....don't worry about your hair.....

Cheeerrrsss...

[Bend alot]

I hope FDG can pick jokes from real questions asked.

[FGD135]

Couldn’t the current flight nurse’s and doctors be rostered in either the PC12 or the PC24?

I'm sure they could Alice, but the issue is with the numbers of nurses and doctors. An extra aircraft at the base makes for extra shifts that have to be filled - assuming the RFDS want all the aircraft always capable of flying.

So, how to fill those extra shifts? Only two ways:

1. Extra manpower, or
2. Increased utilisation of existing manpower.

Option 2 is only feasible if there is considerable "fat" in the existing PC12 rosters. There may be some fat, but I very much doubt enough to completely fill all the extra shifts.

In my numbers, I have gone for 4-5 extra pilots, 2-3 extra nurses, and 1-2 extra doctors. I have assumed some fat in the existing nurse manpower levels. Without that fat, it would have to have been 4-5 extra nurses.

[compressor stall]

Are you planning to apply for the CEO role? I'm sure you'll teach them a thing or 2 in the interview process.