RFDS Pilatus PC24

[machtuk]

Originally Posted by Bend alot

They do not need to be dirt strips for wild life the RFDS WA section lost 4 Garret TPE 331 engines in around a week on 3 aircraft. 2 were wildlife on 2 separate sealed strips. The other was a dirt strip at Cotton Creek in the Little Sandy Desert, the pilot was off the runway turning around (after rain) when the nose started to get bogged. Application of "much" more power gave the sensation of forward movement until the nose leg collapsed. This as you would be aware created a double propeller strike even ripping one gear box apart - now if this was say the jet, how many engines would need to be changed?

The same for the other 2 aircraft that hit wildlife, it is the propeller that caused the costly repairs.

You miss a lot of the points here. The risks are higher at strips that have less infrastructure around them as animals hunt for food in open spaces especially around unimproved runways. Wild life doesn't have to hit the props to U/S a plane! Take out a single aerial under the belly deforming the skin & an inspection.
would be needed, the jet would be grounded! Not too sure what jet/s you fly but jets are very sensitive to impact damage of any kind!

[morno]

Several years of RFDS flying in various types of bases, conducting all different types of work from clinics to routine hospital transfers, to dragging people out of crashed aeroplanes, I sit here banging my head against the wall reading your posts FGD,

There’s a lot more to RFDS work than merely sitting around waiting for a job allocated several hours before. Everything is on a priority basis. If a higher priority job comes in, they do that job. The aircraft and crew are not ‘tied up’.

I think allocating a jet to Broome and a jet to Jandakot is the perfect way to utilise it.

What is the operating cost of the PC-24 compared to the PC-12?

As someone else alluded to, you seem very anti RFDS. Cost should not be a factor when public health is the priority.

[Bend alot]

machtuk - I don't fly them only fix them.

Partly agree about higher risks at strips with less infrastructure around them, but interesting is RAAF Base Tindal where Pearl Aviation had to cancel aeromedical operations (B200) due to wallaby's.

Costly repairs to aircraft is a retaliative thing. Take out a single VHF aerial on either a PC12 or PC24 and the repair will be very similar and also the down time. Depending on where the "dent" is, again the repair cost and down time can be similar. Now if you take the collapsed nose neg example on a PC12 (B200 or C441) against the PC24 , replacement and repair of the nose leg would be similar but the engine and propeller repairs will be much higher.

With the PC24 having rear mounted (and higher) engines they are less likely to be affected by animals/wildlife, the likelihood is further reduced by having a much smaller diameter than the propeller arc.

Are you able to supply what non jet aircraft are not sensitive to impact damage? Certainly the Citation is build far more robust than the Caravan in as far as impact damage to the air-frames.

[Towering Q]

Yes, you are missing something. You shouldn't be, because I have gone over it several times - see my post #65.

Your level of arrogance is quite extraordinary. I didn't realize you were a world authority on aeromedical retrievals.

1. The time to do a transfer is 2.5 hours longer when the jet is based in Broome (the idea of jets is to save time);
2. The taxpayer shells out a million dollars more, per year, to have a jet in Broome.

I love the way you pluck figures out of the air to suit your argument. Where did a million dollars come from? Do you have an intricate understanding of the Broome Bases finances?

Despite all the pontificating on threads like this, there will be a 24 based in Broome. In the mean time, if you feel your tax dollars are being wasted, I suggest you take it up with your local MP.

[Bend alot]

Towering Q - the $1,000,000 was FDG135,'s guess at the cost of housing and other costs to the RFDS for staff at Broome that is not paid at Jandakot. I always thought it was well over the top and looking at the RFDS WA Pilot EBA it certainly is. All so to note is the extra 15 minute response time for Jandakot.

Seems the extra cost is about $20,000 per pilot based in Broome.

source :- AE416813

All new or existing employees employed at the (new) Broome base will receive the applicable district allowance rate for Broome in accordance with the WA Government rates.

All new employees employed at a regional base will be eligible for the applicable district allowance in accordance with the WA Government rates.

(Around $10,000 PA)



2. Permanent Accommodation

2.1 This clause shall apply in respect of permanent accommodation for a Full-time Pilot located at Bases outside the Perth metropolitan area, other than for the short term period provided in Clause 1.5 and 1.6 of this Annexure.

2.2 All Pilots employed at Bases on Permanent Transfer other than Jandakot Base shall be provided with:

(a) suitable Permanent Accommodation; or annual accommodation and utilities allowance of $10,028 per annum.

(b) or in the case of Pilot owning their own residence in a regional Base, $10, 180).

The allowance to be increased by the annual CPI rate each year during the life of the Agreement. This allowance will be paid pro-rata on paid hours worked.

2.3 A Pilot who resides in permanent accommodation owned or operated by the RFDS:

RFDS Pilots

(a) shall have 5% of the Pilot's gross salary deducted and remitted to the RFDS as a rental charge; and (around $6,000 PA)

(b) shall have 3% of the Pilot's gross salary deducted and remitted to the RFDS as a utility charge and the RFDS will pay all reasonable costs for the utilities used.(around $3,600 PA)



3. Response Times 3.1

When a Pilot is on Reserve Time at Home or Away from the Airport, the Pilot must be contactable and available for Duty and must sign on for Duty at the Airport:

(a) at Bases other than Jandakot Base, within 30 minutes of being notified of a callout; and

(b) at the Jandakot Base, within 45 minutes of being notified of a callout.

3.2 Pilots must make all reasonable attempts to contact the tasking coordinator to advise if an unexpected delay occurs.

[FGD135]

Bend alot, that rollover and the burnt athletes all would have initially gone to the local hospitals for stabilisation (Derby, Kununurra). They would not have been ready for transport to Perth or Darwin until several hours later. The jet from Jandakot could have been using those hours to get to the Kimberley.

There are numerous cases and places where the jet base in Broome can be justified

Can you give me example scenarios? No need for specific cases, just scenarios. I have been asking for these scenarios for a while now. Remember that anybody coming from Broome will first be coming from the Broome hospital - so there will be plenty of time to get the jet up from Jandakot.

Cost should not be a factor when public health is the priority.

This is an incredible statement coming from someone that has worked for the RFDS, morno. Cost is, in fact, the NUMBER ONE determinant in where/when/how medical services are provided. Everything is determined by cost. Everything. I once heard an RFDS nurse saying a similar thing. This is the starry-eyed, romantic, idealised notion of the RFDS. The reality is more down to earth. Money does not grow on trees.

And don't think cost is not important. Careflight and a few others have designs on a slice of WA's aeromedical contracts. The inter-hospital transfers, for example, is a niche that could be made into a separate contract (or has already been). Careflight could do that work much more cheaply than the RFDS.

Towering Q,

I love the way you pluck figures out of the air to suit your argument. Where did a million dollars come from?

The "million dollars" is an educated guess. I would guess 4-5 more pilots, 2-3 more nurses, and 1-2 more doctors. That is 7-10 houses to be provided to these staff, plus all the remote allowances and perks. What would be your estimate?

Surely you can see where the 2.5 hours comes from - and that it is a very accurate figure.

I am not at all "anti RFDS". They do a great job (but given their history, would have to be bloated and inefficient). I am anti having our taxes wasted. Our "governments" probably waste a good 50% of all that hard earned money we have to give them. Every day, they find new ways to waste it.

[Bend alot]

FGD135 I did give you the example - you should read what I can not link. Here is a bit more of it.

Stabilisation was in Darwin not Kunnanara.

"Royal Flying Doctors spokeswoman Joanne Hill said the two were flown to Darwin because the trip to Perth was too long.

"Ideally the two would have gone to Perth but we needed to stabilise them," she said.

Ms Hill said the runners were injured at about 5pm on Friday and had to wait four hours for the alarm to be raised. They then had the 100km journey - mostly on unsealed roads - to Kununurra Hospital before the Royal Flying Doctor Service could take them to Darwin."

Note Kunnanara to Darwin (if they were stable then they would have gone to Perth) - so they were not stable at Kunnanara.
Once stable in Darwin one went to Sydney and the other Melbourne.

This real example shows your Perth only jet base as a massive time delay over Broome, as the PC24 would fly direct into Kunnanarra (no feeder PC12) then be in Darwin while your Perth based jet is only around 1/2 way to Kunnanarra.

[Icarus2001]

Before you guys get carried away about "our tax dollars" remember that they are only part government funded. Last financial year they received 22% of their funds from the federal government and 29% from state and territory governments. That is 51%, leaving 49% to other sources.

https://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/asse...16-2017_D9.pdf

[FGD135]

Thanks, Icarus2001. A little birdy once told me it was 80% government, but she was from WA, so that may have been just the Western Section.

[FGD135]

Seems the extra cost is about $20,000 per pilot based in Broome.

Bend alot, you have left out the housing costs and most of the perks. 7-10 houses would have to be provided to the 7-10 extra staff that would occupy Broome. How much would it cost the RFDS per house, per year? Some may be rentals, some may be purchased. And the perks for the nurses and doctors? The doctors are on hefty salaries and receive hefty perks to match.

Stabilisation was in Darwin not Kunnanara.

You're basing that on the statement from the RFDS. Every statement from them should be taken with a grain of salt. It comes down to what degree of stabilisation. A certain amount of that stabilisation would had to have occurred at the Kununurra hosital.

This real example shows your Perth only jet base as a massive time delay over Broome, as the PC24 would fly direct into Kunnanarra (no feeder PC12)...

You're assuming that the RFDS only became aware of these cases when they first arrived in Kununurra - and that on arrival in Kununurra, they were ready to instantly go to Darwin.

In reality, the RFDS would have been aware of them hours before they got to Kununurra. And they would have spent several hours in the Kununurra hospital, on top of that. Plenty of time to get the jet up from Perth.

[Towering Q]

Every statement from them should be taken with a grain of salt

There’s that ‘anti-RFDS’ tone sneaking in again.

Myself and another Hedland pilot flew to Kununurra for this job. Derby unavailable for some reason. Kununurra Hospital were completely overwhelmed, as you could imagine. Our medical crews went in to stabilise for transfer. I flew Turia Pitt on to Darwin. We chose Darwin for a number of reasons.
1. Doctors were struggling to gain IV access for fluid resus. Therefore time critical.
2. Pilots would have to declare mercy flight to get to Perth due to duty time restrictions.
3. Perth would require two fuel stops due to load limits with the PC12.
4. Darwin was only 45 minutes away
5. Darwin had a good trauma unit with experienced medical staff, thanks to the Bali bombings.

Although this scenario isn’t exactly an everyday event, a PC24 based in Broome would have been ideal. I don’t recall us having much ‘lead time’ for this job, so the Jet transit time from Jandakot would have been an issue.

[Bend alot]

"you have left out the housing costs and most of the perks. 7-10 houses would have to be provided to the 7-10 extra staff that would occupy Broome. How much would it cost the RFDS per house, per year? Some may be rentals, some may be purchased. And the perks for the nurses and doctors? The doctors are on hefty salaries and receive hefty perks to match."

Mate READ the EBA, there is a very clear cut back and not many "perks".

The new Base Allowance is much less for Broome and housing is capped or charged. Rental in Broome is reasonable and I expect most permanent staff are required to get their own accommodation, I expect that the RFDS do have some houses but they are for temp crew/staff on fill ins.

Perks seem to be a fuel card with a limit and medicals, both include Jandakot pilots.

So until you supply something other than opinion lets stick to the factual $20K. and nothing like a total $1,000,000 that you asked if we had a better idea rather than your "educated" guess.

On your current form, it might not look good for you if we look at your other claims - re doctors and perks and so on.

I am also not sure a new aircraft type would require 7-10 houses but am certain the number of staff would be similar if an extra PC12 was based in Broome - so it is not really a jet base argument more capacity.

Towering Q #5 I have to agree - I am alive and scareless due to the Bali Bombings and the new treatment they developed.
Keep up the good work.

A very good guy I knew died trying to help a Trucky at Nanutarra Roadhouse many years ago, there was no aircraft to dispatch for a period of time. The organisation has now grown and with the introduction of the PC24 maybe he could be saved if it were now he had the accident. The station is like 1km away and has 2 runways and from memory one could take the jet, while not sealed people in that part of the world will make it to a standard required even with fencing - They just do what is required.

I also think that we will find Nanutarra is very close to half way between Jandakot and Broome coincidentally for me.

[FGD135]

I don’t recall us having much ‘lead time’ for this job, so the Jet transit time from Jandakot would have been an issue.

You're speaking from a pilot's perspective. You said yourself that there may be hours between when the job comes up and when the crew are tasked. How much time elapsed before you were called in this case? You would not have been tasked immediately.

I expect most permanent staff are required to get their own accommodation

I very much doubt that. Hence my claim re the 7-10 houses. Perhaps Towering Q can enlighten us, based on his time at Port Hedland.

... lets stick to the factual $20K

That figure is from the pilot's EBA. What about the nurses and doctors? You have just shown that the total remote allowance for just the pilots is about $100K. Add in those for the extra nurses and doctors and you will be already near one quarter of the way to that million dollars. Now add in the housing (including utilities).

[Bend alot]

FDG135 we have supplied many facts - your turn show us the doctors and nurses costs as per EBA or other.

You supply nothing in way of fact and now proven very wrong on the pilots (your first claim of $1M) you want to change to medical staff.

(READ THE EBA - times HAVE CHANGED it is not Port Headland but all new now at Port Headland are under the new EBA (READ IT!!!!!!) then we will not look like you do now.)

Fine prove the cost, as we have proven you wrong to date with facts.

*** The fire burnt the victims at around 5 pm and the alarm was raised about 4 hours later, but both girls were taken by chopper to Kunnanara not by road so at a guess we are looking at a 10 pm arrival at Kunnanara. At best the the jet is ready to leave Jandakot as the girls are being picked up in the choppers - do the flight times between the 2 bases.

[willadvise]

I have no experience in this area apart from being an ATC for some years dealing with the RFDS. A scenario I have envisaged is, a patient is picked up by the PC12 from somewhere, or presents to Broome hospital. It looks like they will need to go to Perth. The Perth based PC24 is sent up to Broome. Subsequently, patient is assessed as treatable there or dies. This becomes a wasted trip for the Perth based PC24 whereas a Broome based PC24 would have never left the ground.

Not sure how often this is likely to happen but thought I would throw it out there for comment.
​​​​​

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by machtuk

Well said FGD, most have no idea how it all works. Most accident cases that require evac are pre prepped so the jet would only be used when it's beneficial time wise, actually available & convenient, other than that it wont be doing much in the way of work to remote dirt strips as there are too many limitations. The 12's will still do the majority of the work, the Jet is a political thing as well but that's a whole other story!

No it is a practical thing and FDG is yet to supply anything other than opinion, that has been refuted by fact.

So exactly how does it work?

[Towering Q]

How much time elapsed before you were called in this case?

I was tasked as soon as I commenced night shift, 1800hrs. The afternoon shift pilot agreed to extend duty. From memory, communication at the event was poor. The girls were ferried into Kununurra via local helicopters.

Re: company housing. All regional bases supply accommodation. Older bases like Hedland, have plenty of company houses. Broome, being a new base, uses rentals. Jandakot is the only base that requires pilots to sort out their own housing.

[Bend alot]

Originally Posted by willadvise

I have no experience in this area apart from being an ATC for some years dealing with the RFDS. A scenario I have envisaged is, a patient is picked up by the PC12 from somewhere, or presents to Broome hospital. It looks like they will need to go to Perth. The Perth based PC24 is sent up to Broome. Subsequently, patient is assessed as treatable there or dies. This becomes a wasted trip for the Perth based PC24 whereas a Broome based PC24 would have never left the ground.

Not sure how often this is likely to happen but thought I would throw it out there for comment.
​​​​​

Hi mate, the No sayers have 2 cards at play.

A) The jet will be sent when a call is raised so travel time is not applicable. But Jandakot has better dispatch.
B) A patient will not be moved until stable - giving time for a jet to move from Jandakot.

Personally if there were no jet in Broome, I don't think sending the jet from Jandakot trying to save my daughter in Broome is a wasted trip but a best effort but short on time.

[Captain Nomad]

I hinted a few pages back that maybe not all patients get transferred to Perth. How many beds in the Darwin hospital are allocated to Kimberley patients? A figure I heard some years ago was about 6-8, I don't know what it is now but I would think it would be more rather than less... And that is just one regional destination. What about patients going back into Broome or Port Hedland?That's an eye watering amount of dead-legging expense to and from Perth even at jet-like speeds... Might even buy you a few housed in Broome for that sort of caper...!

What's the chances FDG135 is batting for Care Flight...?

[FGD135]

Re: company housing. All regional bases supply accommodation. Older bases like Hedland, have plenty of company houses. Broome, being a new base, uses rentals. Jandakot is the only base that requires pilots to sort out their own housing.

Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).

I hinted a few pages back that maybe not all patients get transferred to Perth.

There is no justification for transfers to Darwin from the Kimberley with the jet. The time saved is miniscule. The transfer from Kununurra for example, would take 45 minutes in the jet, versus 60 minutes in the PC-12. 60 and 96 from Halls Creek. And those patients would be already stabilised, thus reducing the need for expediency. No justification.