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AirServices Aus denies Perth flypast

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AirServices Aus denies Perth flypast

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Old 15th Nov 2018, 13:24
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AirServices Aus denies Perth flypast

Anger after Armistice Day Flypast cancelled.

A war of words has erupted over a civilian air traffic controller forcing a jet fighter pilot to abort a mission to honour Australia's war dead.

The RAAF fly-past was supposed to happen last Sunday during Armistice Day commemorations at Kings Park but the air traffic controller refused the pilot clearance to enter Perth airspace, the RSL claims.

RSLWA chief executive John McCourt said the fly-past was even more significant this year on the 100th anniversary of the end of fighting in WWI.

“This was a very important event, more important this year because of the 100th anniversary of armistice.”

"We were just absolutely gobsmacked,” he said.

The RAAF fly-past over Kings Park has always been part of Armistice Day commemorations, with planes flying over the war memorial at exactly 11am.

Air Services Australia blamed the pilot, saying in a statement the fly-past was aborted by the pilot due to an operational delay.

That claim has been rejected by the RSL.

"The RAAF, they're a precise war machine they know exactly what timings are,” Mr McCourt said.

“He (the pilot) was there he was ready and he couldn't get clearance at the right time.”


Having listened to the ATC recordings it was definitely not the pilots fault....
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 14:02
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http://archive-server.liveatc.net/yp...2018-0230Z.mp3

At about 26 minutes in the RAAF pilot clearly cancels his request to conduct a flypast.

Most of the recording was garbled but it seems as if the controller offered him a clearance if he could maintain visual separation with conflicting traffic which he declined.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 14:11
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The situation might not have been helped by the runway works putting the majority of ops on 6/24, which doesn't have such a favourable direction in relation to King's Park.

(But then traffic should be pretty light on a Sunday morning)
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 23:37
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/yp...2018-0230Z.mp3

At about 26 minutes in the RAAF pilot clearly cancels his request to conduct a flypast.

Most of the recording was garbled but it seems as if the controller offered him a clearance if he could maintain visual separation with conflicting traffic which he declined.
Because he couldn’t see the traffic.

If traffic had not been lined up and cleared on 24 for that two minute window he’d have been able to follow his previously issued clearance, whichever was cancelled. He cancelled his request after the time on target window had been missed due to having the clearance withdrawn; there’s no point going overhead five minutes after the ceremony has continued after you’re late.

Complex airspace and hard work for all players but pretty obvious what the time window was going to be for a armistice day flypast. You can’t blame the pilot here.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 00:27
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You may not be able to blame the pilot but neither could you blame the controllers. As the RSL President calls them, the “precision machine” should’ve read the NOTAMs and realised with the main runway out the likely traffic flow would’ve conflicted with their flypast and then they could’ve better co-ordinated the planning of it with Airservices.

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Old 16th Nov 2018, 02:18
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Originally Posted by Dre
should’ve read the NOTAMs and realised with the main runway out
Virgin 738 departed off 21 at 1052...

Originally Posted by Dre
they could’ve better co-ordinated the planning of it with Airservices.
What's that? Hawk holding off the coast (probably on a flight plan, mind you, with intentions) for an 1100 flyby and ATC launching a departure off 24 right then. What planning would be required? This ain't rocket science...

Originally Posted by Dre
Most of the recording was garbled but it seems as if the controller offered him a clearance if he could maintain visual separation with conflicting traffic which he declined.
The Fokker was lined up on 24 (Approach stated that), then took off just as the Hawk was getting ready. I wonder if the Fokker was asked if they would hold for the Hawk to do his thing...

"I told you, unable, report sighting the Fokker". Nice.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 02:49
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....and all the politicians stood there with their hands on their hearts blabbering about "they died for our freedoms and our way of life"
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 04:04
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Don't the RAAF and AsA controllers sit in the same room in Perth. Surely a bit of coordination between the two could have averted the denial of a clearance without restriction.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 04:46
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Don't the RAAF and AsA controllers sit in the same room in Perth.
It does not look like that was the issue here.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 05:00
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Originally Posted by YPJT View Post
Don't the RAAF and AsA controllers sit in the same room in Perth. Surely a bit of coordination between the two could have averted the denial of a clearance without restriction.
they do but it wouldn’t help here where it’s a case of a military aircraft in civil airspace waiting on a clearance into a CTZ.

Those tapes are garbage so it’s pretty hard to make out how it played out, but it sounded like a question of ‘are you ready to go now’ ‘yes’ ‘cleared bla bla bla’ then after 3 minutes when Phnx81 hadn’t started their run in yet the clearance was cancelled and a departure lined up on 24.

When it comes to military fly bys on important days controllers are usually pretty well briefed on what it entails, and will usually add a little bit of fat on each side of a target time. Usually involves a lot of coordination between the tower and approach/deps - and a misunderstanding in this may have led to the clearance being cancelled (speculating: departures saw a natural gap, asked Hawk if they were ready now, hawk said yes, cleared in - departures
didnt see the necessity to STOP departures as they anticipated them being done before next one hit the holding point, HAWK’s ‘ready’ should of been ‘ready in 3’, hadnt commenced run in before next departure lined up, aircraft on final so can’t leave one sitting lined up, HAWK’S clearance cancelled until they can sight and maintain sep with departing traffic.)
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 06:46
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An Adelaide flypast conducted by four Tiger Moths and a C180 went off without a hitch. The flypast was almost on the centre line of 23 only a couple of miles NE of YPAD. ATC simply ensured no conflicting traffic for the 5 minute window required. This was the 100th anniversary of a armistice day. It’s a disgrace that ATC did not provide the window.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 13:18
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What an absolute joke - controllers should be ashamed of this atrocity.

King's Park is 6NM from the END of 6/24.

Fokker would have been 2000+ feet clear of the Hawk at that point.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 13:22
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aircraft on final so can’t leave one sitting lined up
Nobody on final according to webtrak...
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 15:45
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Even though I believe that the controller stuffed up (it would be nice to have a time check in there somewhere to see how close to his planbed clearance time of 59 he was), it's kind of funny to see the militarys response when the shoe is on the other foot. She was a lot more pleasant and accommodating than military ATC can be if you're a civvy trying to transit a quiet zone.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 16:42
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Originally Posted by AbsoluteFokker View Post
What an absolute joke - controllers should be ashamed of this atrocity.

King's Park is 6NM from the END of 6/24.

Fokker would have been 2000+ feet clear of the Hawk at that point.

Surely you just hold civil traffic on the ground, or out of the area for a short period while the military flypast takes place.
Only one Hawk??
We recently flew 100 aircraft, about half Fast Jets including a 22 Typhoon formation, 12 hawks, 8 Tornados, and the Red Arrows, over central London at about 1500 ft, and then dispersing in the Heathrow overhead.
No problem, and caused minimal departure delays with a bit of forward planning.

Last edited by cessnapete; 17th Nov 2018 at 09:32.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 17:54
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What a shame (I do mean that, literally).
In UK the airspace is closed for such flypasts and NOTAM'd as such in advance. It sometimes causes inconvenience to other traffic (us included) , but that's not so important, really, in the great scheme of things.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 20:12
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Originally Posted by AbsoluteFokker View Post
What an absolute joke - controllers should be ashamed of this atrocity.

King's Park is 6NM from the END of 6/24.

Fokker would have been 2000+ feet clear of the Hawk at that point.
Hawk was cleared not above 1500, so they would of needed the Fokker at 2500 by 3 miles upwind for separation.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 22:39
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Originally Posted by WhisprSYD View Post


Hawk was cleared not above 1500, so they would of needed the Fokker at 2500 by 3 miles upwind for separation.
Why is a civilian airliner cleared to fly anywhere near a planned? Military aircraft on a fly past. Should have been held on the ground until Ceremonial complete.
Appears to be a poor and potentially dangerous lack of ATC coordination.
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