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Airservices Airspace Modernisation Proposal & Consultation

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Airservices Airspace Modernisation Proposal & Consultation

Old 16th Aug 2019, 05:13
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Originally Posted by 10JQKA


Which Tranche & which part ?

E over D at regional TWRs vice C or
Lowered E base to F125 from F180 in the bush or
Insertion of C F180 to F245 & lifting of A in high density areas or
All of the above ?
Lowering E to F125, changing C and A. E over D hasn't gone to CASA yet.
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Old 16th Aug 2019, 14:57
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That's why it works in the US.
Yup, exactly. Whenever you fly over the top of a Class D tower in the States at A045 there will be surveillance coverage. But you and I both know that at Towered aerodromes in Australia, with surveillance.........to the ground.........that a VFR pilot will be met with:

'Have you got a plan in the system'
'remain outside controlled airspace' (no matter what the traffic disposition is) I know how it works, got experience from both sides of the fence. And in both countries.

Go over to the States, hire an aircraft and see how it works, if you are not a pilot, arrange a security clearance, sit beside one of your tower comrades and watch them work it. While you're there, they'll explain to you the term 'cleared the option' something that will NEVER happen in ASA land.
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Old 16th Aug 2019, 20:26
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Unless cleared the option means something else in the states it is definitely used in ASA land. (Cleared missed approach/touch and go/stop and go/land)
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 00:56
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Originally Posted by atcnews
Lowering E to F125, changing C and A. E over D hasn't gone to CASA yet.

The E over D vice C at regional TWRs is the big one, so let’s hope sanity prevails in due course.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 01:58
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There’s E over D vice D at a number of towered places in Australia now. The people who decided to do that don’t seem to be insane, and it doesn’t seem to have resulted in aluminium confetti. Not sure why C to E would be such an insane move either.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 04:27
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
There’s E over D vice D at a number of towered places in Australia now. The people who decided to do that don’t seem to be insane, and it doesn’t seem to have resulted in aluminium confetti. Not sure why C to E would be such an insane move either.





Broome ATSB Repcon refers https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2018/ar201800058/
Nothing to see here ?

CASA Broome/Karratha Airspace Review, consultation closed now, findings expected by 30/09/19

https://consultation.casa.gov.au/off...0WA%202019.pdf

https://consultation.casa.gov.au/off...-and-karratha/

Suppose the question is, if it has problems where it already operates in low density ports it doesn’t add up to consider it for busy eastern seaboard regional TWRd ports does it ?

The Tranche 3 proposal if anyone interested,

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...nche-Three.pdf


Last edited by 10JQKA; 17th Aug 2019 at 05:01.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 09:46
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Unless cleared the option means something else in the states it is definitely used in ASA land. (Cleared missed approach/touch and go/stop and go/land)
uhhhhm, yeah, OK. Where?

And would you mind pasting the MATS reference, in my experience there is zero chance an ATC in Australia would use a reference that is not in MATS.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 10:06
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If it's not in MATS then absolutely they use a reference that's not in MATS, I have been "cleared for the option" many, many times.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 10:08
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I've used 'the option' heaps when I wore a blue suit. IIRC, the pilot had to ask for it. Same call as 'base, touch and go' or 'base, full stop'. AIP GEN 3.4 - 76 has 'the option' phraseology in it so it is available. It is marked as ICAO silent, hence maybe why our American friends use it - they seem to have a few differences registered.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 10:09
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter
uhhhhm, yeah, OK. Where?

And would you mind pasting the MATS reference, in my experience there is zero chance an ATC in Australia would use a reference that is not in MATS.
Most of the phraseology is in AIP GEN now.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 10:12
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If it's not in MATS then absolutely they use a reference that's not in MATS, I have been "cleared for the option" many, many times.
Where was that please?
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 10:14
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I've used 'the option' heaps when I wore a blue suit.
RAAF-land is different to ASA, very!
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 10:21
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Originally Posted by 10JQKA




Broome ATSB Repcon refers https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2018/ar201800058/
Nothing to see here ?

CASA Broome/Karratha Airspace Review, consultation closed now, findings expected by 30/09/19

https://consultation.casa.gov.au/off...0WA%202019.pdf

https://consultation.casa.gov.au/off...-and-karratha/

Suppose the question is, if it has problems where it already operates in low density ports it doesn’t add up to consider it for busy eastern seaboard regional TWRd ports does it ?

The Tranche 3 proposal if anyone interested,

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...nche-Three.pdf





From the REPCON:
The reporter states that Broome's Class D airspace is overlain by Class E airspace which allows low performance VFR aircraft (usually piloted by less experienced crew) to be a necessary traffic concern to high performance IFR aircraft in both regular passenger transport (RPT) & charter operations during critical flight phases.

RPT aircraft broadcast any pending departure or descent on the relevant Centre frequency. The intent of this is to provide traffic awareness to potential conflicting VFR traffic. The reporter believes that RPT aircraft should not be placed in this position, when the arriving aerodrome is class D (like the structure of Class ADs in eastern states). While some opportunity for coordination may be afforded during descent, the effectiveness of the departure broadcasts is questionable as (presumably) the broadcaster is then dealing with Broome Ground and Tower frequency until they are climbing into Class E. When the broadcaster contacts Centre frequency, and becomes identified, it usually occurs well above 5,500 ft, which is too late for any avoiding action.

The reporter believes there is a safety risk in high performance aircraft having a gap between provided separation during a critical phase of flight. The reporter advises that points two and three of Broome’s ERSA flight procedures are insufficient and suggests the airspace be redesigned to provide Class C services down to at least the top of Class D altitudes on major arrival routing, as is procedure in eastern states.

Reporters comments: “Overall, Class E airspace is quite a pointless concept but never so ridiculously applied as overhead a major destination between Class D and C airspace.”
For some reason the vision of a galapagos tortoise sprang to mind while I was reading that comment.

One wonders how the reporter would cope with "low performance VFR aircraft (usually piloted by less experienced crew)" while the reporter is flying "high performance RPT" aircraft in and out of aerodromes in G.

Last edited by Lead Balloon; 17th Aug 2019 at 11:03.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 11:00
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter
Where was that please?
You should try GEN 3.4-76 under 6. Landing - in the notes bit on the left.

Also can you point out in MATS where the phraseology to clear a a touch and go is if that part of AIP is not good enough.

I've issued it many many times at Jandakot and Karratha. I don't which tower you worked at, but I am sure these 2 places are not the only ones to use it.

Last edited by Awol57; 17th Aug 2019 at 11:13. Reason: locations
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 11:32
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter
RAAF-land is different to ASA, very!
That's because the only time I've ever heard a pilot ask for it was in the RAAF. It's in AIP, just ask for it at any tower. It is pilot initiated.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 11:53
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TNIP: The upshot of the discussion so far appears to me to be that because there's some radio phraseology in that part of AIP, the procedure anticipated by that phraseology exists and is authorised. Go figure...
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 12:57
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Awol57,

I'm asking where the phrase was used in Australia? Where BigPapi was cleared the option? On multiple occasions. If it's at a RAAF controlled aerodrome, it doesn't count. The RAAF controllers work under very different rules than Civilian.

I worked very briefly in a tower. However, I'm talking from a pilots perspective, I've never heard it used in 30 years of flying.

It's been established that it's in AIP.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 13:17
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Jandakot tower uses it regularly. It's been used in Karratha.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 13:52
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Thankyou. I've only flown there once.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 14:46
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Used at Archerfield all the time.
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