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Airservices Airspace Modernisation Proposal & Consultation

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Airservices Airspace Modernisation Proposal & Consultation

Old 17th Aug 2019, 20:48
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Porter, at Moorabbin. You'd probably hear it a a few times a week.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 22:15
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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BigPapi,

I've been flying there for around 15 years and have never heard it.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 22:27
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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That... that doesn't mean it doesn't happen...
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 00:00
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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No worries, I'll give a bloke I know there a call, ask if he's ever used it.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 00:02
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Used at Archerfield all the time.
All the time, right! I call BS on that one.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 00:05
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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It appears that every Class D Metro Tower is using 'Cleared the Option' if not some of the time to 'all of the time' wow, I'm impressed.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 00:24
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To clarify, it's usually used when requested by the pilot (instructor in most cases doing a solo check) in my experience. If you have said full stop/tough and go or some variation of that I would usually just clear as requested, as the pilot can stop anytime they like regardless.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 04:03
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Awol57, thanks for clarification.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 07:29
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Been cleared "the option" 3 or 4 times in Cairns - mainly when doing flight review.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 09:07
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
All the time, right! I call BS on that one.
really?
Give someone there a call.
On a daily basis whenever a course is doing their circuits.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 22:40
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
From the REPCON:For some reason the vision of a galapagos tortoise sprang to mind while I was reading that comment.

One wonders how the reporter would cope with "low performance VFR aircraft (usually piloted by less experienced crew)" while the reporter is flying "high performance RPT" aircraft in and out of aerodromes in G.
This is not about G airspace ops.

Here we are talking about what is currently C airspace above D tower/app airspace in eastern seaboard regional ports being downgraded to E above D. In the first part of the modernisation, the airspace has already been taken from TWR/APP above A045 and transferred to En-route Centre ATCs but is still C. TWR/APP prior to this change had it up to A085. The next part of the modernisation proposal is to downgrade the C to E.

Whether yr slow or fast, RPT or VFR, experienced or not, doesn’t change some of the issues being highlighted here.






Last edited by 10JQKA; 18th Aug 2019 at 23:06.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 00:17
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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I know it’s about a proposal to change C to E above the specified aerodromes. (You call it “downgraded”. Others call it “modernisation”.)

My point about aerodromes in Class G is that pilots of ‘high performance RPT aircraft’ continue to operate in and out of aerodromes in Class G where those dangerously inexperienced VFR pilots make their own judgment whether or not to talk on the radio and don’t have to have a serviceable transponder. Bizarrely, there is protest from some quarters when a proposal is made to ‘upgrade’ some G to E!


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Old 19th Aug 2019, 13:04
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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really?
Give someone there a call.
On a daily basis whenever a course is doing their circuits.
Yeah really, I seriously doubt it goes on at all, let alone on a daily basis (during courses).

So far the only people saying it goes on are ATC's. ATC's who don't like an ex ATC criticising a serious lack of service to VFR aircraft in this country. ATC in this country suffer from some sort of 'Worlds Best Practice' bias. I've been fortunate enough to fly VFR extensively in the US, I 'suffered' from the same bias until I did.

ATC in this country are very close minded. There are lessons to be learned from a system that does it far better than us. I struggle to understand where and why it started to go wrong. I did my UPPL at Bankstown in the early 90's, there were 10 aircraft in the training circuit, more sometimes. Why is the training circuit limited to 6 aircraft now?

Australia, the lucky country.........not.

Horne's intent in writing the book was to portray Australia's climb to power and wealth based almost entirely on luck rather than the strength of its political or economic system, which Horne believed was "second rate". In addition to political and economic weaknesses, he also lamented on the lack of innovation and ambition

Last edited by The name is Porter; 19th Aug 2019 at 13:21.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 13:23
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
Yeah really, I seriously doubt it goes on at all, let alone on a daily basis (during courses).

So far the only people saying it goes on are ATC's. ATC's who don't like an ex ATC criticising a serious lack of service to VFR aircraft in this country. ATC in this country suffer from some sort of 'Worlds Best Practice' bias. I've been fortunate enough to fly VFR extensively in the US, I 'suffered' from the same bias until I did.

ATC in this country are very close minded. There are lessons to be learned from a system that does it far better than us. I struggle to understand where and why it started to go wrong. I did my UPPL at Bankstown in the early 90's, there were 10 aircraft in the training circuit, more sometimes. Why is the training circuit limited to 6 aircraft now?

Australia, the lucky country.........not.
OK, you got us. We made it up.

You need to talk to CASA about the limit, that was dropped from 10 to 6 when they changed from GAAP to Class D as a result of the MB accident. Eventually CASA either ammended that to 8 or dropped it, not sure I had moved on from metro D. But I probably made that up too.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 14:31
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Dood,

You can carry on all you like about making shit up. I don't need to talk to CASA about anything. Fact remains that Australian ATC just ain't that good. I left ATC voluntarily, without a redundancy because I couldn't stand the bullshit anymore. Sub standard management, sub standard supervision and from what you're saying about limits, controllers unwilling to stand up to CASA. Aviation in the early nineties was dynamic, controllers in GAAP control zones in those times were guns. I was a flight data in those days, I saw stuff happening at Bankstown that was amazing.

And you guys will never admit that someone does it better than you. You cannot accept that others have experienced a better system, you won't listen to those people, you all hate Dick, not because he speaks of a better system, but because you have a regulator, employer and union telling you to hate him.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 21:15
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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C’mon, TNIP. We know best. As the reporter commented in the REPCON at the link at #66:
Overall, Class E airspace is quite a pointless concept but never so ridiculously applied as overhead a major destination between Class D and C airspace.
If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporter’s insights.

(I’ve never heard the phrase “cleared the option” in 30 plus years of flying in and out of GAAP/“Metropolitan Class D” i.e. GAAP and Class C aerodromes in Australia. I would have queried it and will query it immediately, as I have no idea what it means. I’ll make a guess and suggest that it’s used by the ADF - like cleared to land “check wheels” - and is working its way by osmosis to civvy ops?)
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 22:40
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
C’mon, TNIP. We know best. As the reporter commented in the REPCON at the link at #66:If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporter’s insights.

(I’ve never heard the phrase “cleared the option” in 30 plus years of flying in and out of GAAP/“Metropolitan Class D” i.e. GAAP and Class C aerodromes in Australia. I would have queried it and will query it immediately, as I have no idea what it means. I’ll make a guess and suggest that it’s used by the ADF - like cleared to land “check wheels” - and is working its way by osmosis to civvy ops?)
No, not a RAAF thing. It was introduced into the joint civvie/MATS and AIP in the late 1990s. In my humble experience in both worlds, it is usually only used when requested by the pilot, and cleared to do so when traffic conditions permit. You're not going to let someone do whatever runway activity they want in a busy circuit.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 00:50
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Led Balon
(I’ve never heard the phrase “cleared the option” in 30 plus years of flying in and out of GAAP/“Metropolitan Class D” i.e. GAAP and Class C aerodromes in Australia. I would have queried it and will query it immediately, as I have no idea what it means. I’ll make a guess and suggest that it’s used by the ADF - like cleared to land “check wheels” - and is working its way by osmosis to civvy ops?)
AIP GEN 3.4 page 76.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 02:11
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Bloggs, Thanks, but it has been confirmed by Awol a coupla days ago.

Mr Balloon,

​​​​​​​C’mon, TNIP. We know best. As the reporter commented in the REPCON at the link at #66:
Yep, just look at the damage done to aviation in this country due to that thinking!!

Overall, Class E airspace is quite a pointless concept but never so ridiculously applied as overhead a major destination between Class D and C airspace.
If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporter’s insights.
Yep, the FAA are totally incompetent, US ATC's are just not as good and aluminium falls from the sky on a daily basis.

(I’ve never heard the phrase “cleared the option” in 30 plus years of flying in and out of GAAP/“Metropolitan Class D” i.e. GAAP and Class C aerodromes in Australia. I would have queried it and will query it immediately, as I have no idea what it means. I’ll make a guess and suggest that it’s used by the ADF - like cleared to land “check wheels” - and is working its way by osmosis to civvy ops?)
Mate, I've never heard it in 30 years, never. But go figure, it happens every day!!
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 02:29
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My comment wasn't addressed to you, Porter.
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