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IFR being held at 8,500 feet in VMC – less safety

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IFR being held at 8,500 feet in VMC – less safety

Old 26th Oct 2018, 02:00
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.
Just a point of order. I would say most IFR flights in the US pick up their clearance on the ground. If they are departing from one of the 500+ airports with a control tower they'll get the clearance from ground control or clearance delivery. If they are departing from an uncontrolled airport there are ways to get the clearance over the phone or through a remote communications outlet. If they do depart VFR they'll contact ATC shortly after leaving the traffic pattern Certainly well before 17 thousand.

You can now return to whatever it is you're talking about.
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 16:58
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?
The controllers don’t know, nor do they need to know. They either issue an IFR clearance or they don’t. If they don’t issue a clearence, you are free to depart VFR, but it is incumbent on you to maintain VFR cloud clearances until such time that you can get an IFR clearance. If VMC exists to 18,000 ft, you are free to climb to 17,500 ft.
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 17:42
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post

Are you suggesting an expansion of Class E airspace, together with changing the rules of Class E airspace to allow uncontrolled IFR in VMC?




I don't know what Dick is suggesting, but as a point of reference, in the US, which is relevant as Dick keeps referring to the US, there is no uncontrolled IFR in VMC in class E airspace, an aircraft flying in Class E airspace without an IFR clearance is VFR, and must comply with all the rules for VFR flight (cloud clearances, meteorological conditions, etc.

Also, for the vast majority of the US, Class E airspace begins at 700 or 1200 ft AGL. there are areas in the Rocky Mountain Reigon and in Alaska, where Class G airspace exists above those altitudes, but that's more the exception.

Last edited by A Squared; 28th Oct 2018 at 05:24.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 01:57
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A Squared
If they don’t issue a clearence, you are free to depart VFR, but it is incumbent on you to maintain VFR cloud clearances until such time that you can get an IFR clearance.
I'd have thought it would be more incumbent of one to find out the location of and avoid the aircraft that's preventing one getting a clearance. Or are does one just blast on up looking out the window?
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 04:17
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
I'd have thought it would be more incumbent of one to find out the location of and avoid the aircraft that's preventing one getting a clearance. Or are does one just blast on up looking out the window?
In the absence of me taking the time to type a description of how I identify the location of the other traffic and arrange to not hit it, which is not relevant to the point I was making, I suppose that one approach might be to assume without evidence that I wouldn't take any precautions. I'm not sure why one might choose that approach though, given that it reflects somewhat poorly on the person making unwarranted assumptions and groundless accusations. KWIM?

Last edited by A Squared; 28th Oct 2018 at 04:31.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 13:09
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of thread drift, why does most of Oz have Class E between FL180 and FL245?

Do many aircraft fly VFR at these levels?
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 13:42
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Derfred, you are a very very very naughty boy!
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 22:31
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Rather than debating the current airspace structure, why not debate the new structure from May 2019? I'm too new to post a link but search for Airservices airspace modernisation.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 02:02
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Airservices airspace modernisation
Feedback finishes in 2 1/2 weeks. I must have missed that email... Good one!
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 12:52
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Airservices - Airspace modernisation
Link for those looking.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 01:45
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
To others, I think Atlas Shrugged means he does not want to see G upgraded to E anywhere.

Even though it would maximise the advantages of ADSB.

Incredible!
More Class E is the wrong solution to a problem noone has.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 06:37
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Are there that many VFR pilots needing to access between FL180 and FL245 that that becomes a selling point?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:22
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound View Post
Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
At the present time in Australia pilots on an IFR flight plan cannot enter Class E without a clearance - even in VMC.

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.


Just a point of order. I would say most IFR flights in the US pick up their clearance on the ground. If they are departing from one of the 500+ airports with a control tower they'll get the clearance from ground control or clearance delivery. If they are departing from an uncontrolled airport there are ways to get the clearance over the phone or through a remote communications outlet. If they do depart VFR they'll contact ATC shortly after leaving the traffic pattern Certainly well before 17 thousand.
I missed this earlier. MarkerInbound is correct, it is simply not true in the US that "...most pilots on an IFR flight plan" depart without clearance and climb to 17,500 before picking up a clearance. It is true that this is a perfectly legal option, if the weather permits. But it is not, by any stretch of the imagination what "most" do. To begin with, most part 121 airlines in the US are not permitted to to this. I fly for a 121 airline which operates in remote areas. Because of the nature of our operations, and the fact that we are a cargo only airline, we have approval to depart VFR, and pick up an IFR clearance when airborne. Among US Part 121 airlines that is the exception rather than the rule. Outside the airline world, it is still not true to say that "most" operate this way. The vast majority of pilots on a flight where they will be climbing above 17,500 and getting an IFR clearance will be requesting the clearance as soon as practical. There are very few places in the US where you won't be in radar coverage and within VHF radio communications with ATC well below 17,500. If that is true, and it is, even in Alaska, why wouldn't you pick up your IFR clearance sooner rather than later, and begin receiving separation from other IFR traffic, and advisories for VFR traffic? The vast majority, of course, will do exactly that, including those who have departed an uncontrolled airport under VFR, due to unavailability of an IFR clearance for whatever reason. Yes, in the US it is legal to depart VFR when the weather is VMC. Yes, it is legal to continue climbing to 17,500 before getting an IFR clearance, if VFR weather persists that high. It is patently absurd to claim, as Dick has done that "most" IFR flights are operated this way.

Last edited by A Squared; 31st Oct 2018 at 15:33.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:26
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
Are there that many VFR pilots needing to access between FL180 and FL245 that that becomes a selling point?
I don't know. But if positive control airspace begins at FL180, then "nobody flies VFR above 180" becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, doesn't it?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Naturally, however Airservices regard it as particularly important in the J curve. Is it? Are there so many VFR batting against the FL180 ceiling that they are blocking the sun?
One proposed change under this program is to standardise the application and management of Class A and E airspace, which will allow Visual Flight Rules (VFR) aircraft to utilise more airspace previously not available to them. This is particularly important for the east coast of Australia between Brisbane and Adelaide (widely known as the “J curve”).
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 15:08
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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IFR in VMC at 8500AMSL. Dude ! look out the f#cken window! Don't hit anything! Sweet as bro...not that frickin hard is it?
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