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IFR being held at 8,500 feet in VMC – less safety

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IFR being held at 8,500 feet in VMC – less safety

Old 24th Oct 2018, 09:55
  #21 (permalink)  
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In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 10:10
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?
AIREPS, PIREPS?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 10:41
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?
OK, thanks Dick.

So effectively what we’re talking about is Class G below cloud level and Class A above - varying dynamically with the cloud base.

Sounds fine to me, although with our traffic density is there any need to change the status quo?

As an RPT 737 operator, I currently operate Class G out of places like Kalgoorlie or Port Hedland and hit Class E at FL180. I could be in cloud for all of that time in Class G. If you lowered the Class E altitude boundary, that would take a load off me for pilot-to-pilot separation and transfer that load to ATC. That sounds great to me as an airline pilot, but wouldn’t it increase ATC costs?

What is your motivation for this?

Last edited by Derfred; 24th Oct 2018 at 10:57.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 11:12
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I really fail to see (as someone who operates IFR out of Class G daily) how this is necessary or could be justified in Australia with our traffic density.

If there's traffic, talk to them. It's really not that hard.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 14:21
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I’ve heard that Class E above F125 where it is currently F180 across the continent is not far away.
Can anybody tuned in confirm???
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:57
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
I really fail to see (as someone who operates IFR out of Class G daily) how this is necessary or could be justified in Australia with our traffic density.

If there's traffic, talk to them. It's really not that hard.
That is exactly the big sky theory. Talking works most of the time, there have been a few instances where talking failed, and we were reliant 100% on big sky theory. There are almost certainly more we never hear about.

The problem is, accurate navigation i.e. IFR effectively makes the sky a lot smaller. That is why ATC was invented.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 00:11
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Originally Posted by Car RAMROD View Post
Maybe no-one has needed to use it because they've all got clearances?

Has anybody here, when IFR, been held below 8500 because of no clearance? Never happened to me, and I've never heard it either on the radio.
Sort of, but only once.

Coming out of Glen Innes in the dead of winter, freezing level well below LSALT with lots of wet, grey cloud about topping at about 9,000. I was IFR, in IMC (but out of the clouds) and ATC said to remain outside controlled airspace.

A quick response of "required due weather" was all it took and the clearance was given.

We have great ATC here in Aus and I really, really had to scratch my head to remember the sole example that might qualify for Ramrod.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 03:43
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This thread should be made into a YouTube video !!

How, just how, did I know that this was going to contain exactly the same drivel as the last 2,000 threads started on the very same subject by the very same person over the past 10 years............. I can hardly wait for the reference to Williamtown Airspace and that bloody VFR lane or whatever it is up there and the Mt Hotham crash........... Oh... I see it's already a few posts back.........oh well, I'll just have to wait for Lismore & Ballina then........

Utter gibberish nonsense
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 06:57
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Atlas, so sad you are angry with an obvious chip on your shoulder.

You dont have to read or reply to my posts.

Its a a free country and I learn a lot from being involved with this site.

Any success I have achieved is by asking advice and taking notice of the advice which is most likely to be correct.

Thanks to those who post in a positive way!

PS. Mt Hotham, Ballina, Lismore ect!
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 13:36
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Dick Smith you will of course be able to cite where in the FAA AIM it states that one is allowed to enter class e airspace under IFR without a clearance. Except I don’t know where you got that idea. It is for that reason one gets a clearance void time on every single IFR departure from an uncontrolled airport. You cannot enter controlled airspace IFR without a clearance. You are confused. In the states you can enter class e vfr without a clearance, not IFR. The end.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 13:56
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Originally Posted by oggers View Post
Dick Smith you will of course be able to cite where in the FAA AIM it states that one is allowed to enter class e airspace under IFR without a clearance. Except I don’t know where you got that idea. It is for that reason one gets a clearance void time on every single IFR departure from an uncontrolled airport. You cannot enter controlled airspace IFR without a clearance. You are confused. In the states you can enter class e vfr without a clearance, not IFR. The end.
Oggers,
You do understand the extent of E in US, do you? And the slightly different use of terminology with VFR and VMC in the US? Although the result is the same.
Not to mention the ease of getting a clearance in US, or filing airborne, and I am not referring to radar or VHF coverage.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 14:07
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[QUOTE=Bankstown Boy;10291731]Sort of, but only once.

Coming out of Glen Innes in the dead of winter, freezing level well below LSALT with lots of wet, grey cloud about topping at about 9,000. I was IFR, in IMC (but out of the clouds) and ATC said to remain outside controlled airspace.

Often ATC needs to coordinate with an adjacent sector to approve a clearance. As I have been told, “remain outside controlled airspace” is the response required until the clearance is agreed.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 15:29
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Oggers Look at my first post again. I made it clear that it was an aircraft that was on an IFR flight plan. I did not say it was in IMC.

My first post is factual. What bit don’t you understand?
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 15:55
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
Has anyone actually used this procedure? I have not heard anyone use it.
Have you ever tried flying a 737 in the USA? It's great not having to worry about bloody CTA steps on descent like I have to here
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:01
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Any success I have achieved is by asking advice and taking notice of the advice which is most likely to be correct.
Except if it doesn't agree with your preconception. Then you denigrate and insult.
Thanks to those who post in a positive way!
QED
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:14
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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pp24 of Airservices Corporate Plan??
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:23
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith View Post
At the present time in Australia pilots on an IFR flight plan cannot enter Class E without a clearance - even in VMC.

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how this problem can be solved in Australia?
Dick,

A thinking pilot will set a standard IFR level OCTA (in your example 8,000 west bound OR 7,000 east bound) until receiving the clearance airborne.
It ain't rocket science.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:59
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Atlas, so sad you are angry with an obvious chip on your shoulder.
I'm not in the slightest way angry - it's not in my nature, nor do I have a chip on my shoulder........to say that is entirely an assumption on your part

I simply have neither the need, nor indeed desire, to fly in that airspace and frankly, I could not care any less about it. I'm sick and tired of reading the same thing over and over and over again about it.

Having said that
You dont have to read or reply to my posts.
...............as you wish.....
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 01:18
  #39 (permalink)  
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To others, I think Atlas Shrugged means he does not want to see G upgraded to E anywhere.

Even though it would maximise the advantages of ADSB.

Incredible!
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Old 26th Oct 2018, 01:21
  #40 (permalink)  
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Banjo, that clearly does not solve the problem of pilots having to level off at lower levels when this would not be required in other leading aviation countries. Why not copy the best?
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