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Stawell crash

Old 29th Jul 2020, 12:47
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Even more trouble for the Bristell type.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/defaul...m-aero-ltd.pdf

The grim reaper is standing over them.
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 12:57
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I'd be surprised if CASA are doing this just for thrills!
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Old 29th Jul 2020, 13:29
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Originally Posted by machtuk
I'd be surprised if CASA are doing this just for thrills!
Touche....
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Old 30th Jul 2020, 05:56
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Here's how you get out of a Bristell spin.

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Old 30th Jul 2020, 23:25
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That is an amazing video - CASA may have a valid argument?
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 01:38
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F.a.r.k I got dizzy just watching that, let alone being in it. That pilot must have been a figure skater in a past life. Would love to hear from a spinner on here eg djpil if his technique should have got results.

The engine stoppage is a curveball. I know an experienced guy who spun an RV6 for many thousands of feet, unable to get out of it until he managed to manipulate power to exit the spin.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 01:54
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You could see that he put power in once or twice but it did not make any difference because he just gave the throttle a blip. He may have done better leaving the throttle on the five seconds or so to try and help the airflow over the tail.

Remember, this is the factory test pilot apparently so it makes you wonder if there is any chance for a new student
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 02:32
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Originally Posted by mcoates
You could see that he put power in once or twice but it did not make any difference because he just gave the throttle a blip. He may have done better leaving the throttle on the five seconds or so to try and help the airflow over the tail.

Remember, this is the factory test pilot apparently so it makes you wonder if there is any chance for a new student
Wrong Michael, the pilot is a well know instructor and ex military pilot from Tauranga, NZ. There is a Kiwi Pilots FB page that refers to this spin which may have been in China?
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 06:35
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Originally Posted by Ndegi
Wrong Michael, the pilot is a well know instructor and ex military pilot from Tauranga, NZ. There is a Kiwi Pilots FB page that refers to this spin which may have been in China?
I have heard this also but its apparently not correct as the incident was in CZ and i saw the report a few years ago when it happened just after the video came on the interweb. Unless there are more of them out there ?
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 08:54
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[QUOTE=Squawk7700;10849927]F.a.r.k I got dizzy just watching that, let alone being in it. That pilot must have been a figure skater in a past life. Would love to hear from a spinner on here eg djpil if his technique should have got results.[ ..../QUOTE]That is an extract from a longer video, the actions prior to this are interesting and relevant to the question posed by Squawk. As already mentioned, there has been some discussion with the pilot in this video elsewhere. May be of interest to some but irrelevant to the question as to whether it complies with the ASTM requirements for a type not approved for spinning.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 15:22
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there has been some discussion with the pilot in this video elsewhere
a link djpil?
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 20:36
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BRM Aero made some pretty hefty allegations in a FB Live video with AOPA. You can rewatch via the AOPA Facebook page.

Essentially, BRM Aero have completed around 260 spins in the aircraft, all recovered as per ASTM standards. CASA refuse this data, without providing any technical explanation as to why the refuse it.

BRM Aero believe the CASA attention relates to an individual who previously provided CoA certificates for Bristells in Australia, who would then go back to his job at RA Aus as tech manager, and stamp the paperwork as approved by RA.

Anderson Aviation, the importer, saw this as a conflict of interest, and sought a new person to provide the CoA.

BRM and Anderson allege that ever since, this person (now working at CASA) has sought to tarnish the Bristellís reputation.

CASA has tried to bring the FAA and NZ CAA on board to ground the Bristell, both have said thanks but no thanks.

Itís sounding a lot like BRM and Anderson are gearing up for a litigation case in the near future, with damages now growing in the vicinity of $20-30m
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 22:56
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Comment: PilotBM’s description suggests that part of the cause of the decay of GA is the lack of trust between industry and the regulator as asserted in the Forsyth review. Would anybody seriously suggest personal conflicts as an issue in the CAA or FAA? I think not. How can anyone safely invest in Australian aviation in such a trust - free environment?
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 00:57
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Originally Posted by megan
a link djpil?
This could be it, not sure, but scroll through the 1600 comments. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1091538964311041

Originally Posted by pilotbm
Essentially, BRM Aero have completed around 260 spins in the aircraft, all recovered as per ASTM standards. CASA refuse this data, without providing any technical explanation as to why the refuse it.
It seems to me that people in CASA (and the RAA) and the ATSB are way out of their depth here. There was a time when staff at CASA's predecessors would document certification issues pretty much on the spot.

Originally Posted by pilotbm
BRM Aero believe the CASA attention relates to an individual who previously provided CoA certificates for Bristells in Australia, who would then go back to his job at RA Aus as tech manager, and stamp the paperwork as approved by RA.Anderson Aviation, the importer, saw this as a conflict of interest, and sought a new person to provide the CoA.
Two-hatted situations are common and potential for conflict of interest does exist in small organisations. My training to become a USA FAA DER dealt with this and my FAA oversight officer would obviously have it high on their agenda. Rules for DARs are the same per https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...er_8100.8D.pdf I would do engineering work then sign an FAA form approving the data as a DER.

Originally Posted by pilotbm
BRM and Anderson allege that ever since, this person (now working at CASA) has sought to tarnish the Bristellís reputation.
He's not the only one to tarnish its reputation as a suitable basic trainer but that's a different subject than compliance with the ASTM which seems to confuse these people.

I have my popcorn ready. I wish Bob Mc and Brett the best of luck.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 03:40
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Please don't get confused here the question is about nothing else other than ASTM compliance.

The ASTM documents list exactly what is required and this manufacture cannot prove compliance.

You need 1800 spins for basic spin compliance, and 600 more to be spin certified.

Watch this video to learn more about what is required for spin certification for intentional spin training in LSA aircraft.

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Old 1st Aug 2020, 04:45
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Originally Posted by mcoates
Please don't get confused here the question is about nothing else other than ASTM compliance.

The ASTM documents list exactly what is required and this manufacture cannot prove compliance.

You need 1800 spins for basic spin compliance, and 600 more to be spin certified.
The numbers you have quoted aren't relevant to the LSA certification. BRM Aero produced the CASA spin testing documentation during the Facebook Live stream which required a total of 36 spins to be completed.

If the aircraft is not compliant with ASTM - why is no other regulatory body worldwide taking action to revoke certification?
Why is CASA not being prescriptive with BRM Aero as to exactly WHY the ASTM standard isn't met? Is it really appropriate for the national regulator to simply say "No", and leave it to the manufacturer to work out why? We are talking about CASA believing there is a significant safety issue - should they not be working with the manufacturer to resolve it?

In regards to the fatal Bristell accident in Clyde - is it appropriate that RAA is legally allowed to self-investigate a fatal accident, and withhold their findings from the manufacturer, given that there is a supposed certification issue with the aircraft?
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 05:37
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Originally Posted by megan
Here's how you get out of a Bristell spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwZrtYgnP7s&t=2s

Just to clarify: that is NOT a Bristell spinning.

The pilot - Phill Hooker from NZ - was testing the Triton Skytrek LSA:

https://fearoflanding.com/fun-stuff/...-at-1000-feet/

http://www.kiwiflyer.co.nz/KiwiFlyer...ill-Hooker.pdf

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Old 1st Aug 2020, 08:02
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It doesnít matter that anyone has allegedly tarnished the aircraft, as the aircraft appears to be doing a fine job of that on its own.

Last edited by Squawk7700; 1st Aug 2020 at 08:30.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 09:37
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I can’t see how you can blame the aircraft . The first accident was caused by the student being chock a block full of Fentanyl and the second by a relatively low time pilot putting on a crazy flying display.
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Old 1st Aug 2020, 10:07
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Originally Posted by Ng5
I canít see how you can blame the aircraft . The first accident was caused by the student being chock a block full of Fentanyl and the second by a relatively low time pilot putting on a crazy flying display.
There have supposedly been a number of them do the same all over the world. Would have to assume that our regulators have looked into those. Itís bordering on unprecedented action and short of the MU2 limitations, there are very few aircraft out there with handling limitations placed upon them. Jabiru of course, had engine limitations, not handling. Will be interesting to see where it leads.
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