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Stawell crash

Old 5th Oct 2018, 21:29
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
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This latest accident demonstrates the total disconnect between RAA and GA and the regulator CAsA.
Sadly these two people have become statistics of this.
The earlier accident in Victoria which was an aircraft of the same type but RAA registered and I understand that investigations into that accident are well progressed with the ATSB.
I also understand these are not the only incidents of "Flat Spinning" in this type of aircraft.
It is time for the ATSB and CAsA to stand up and divulge what they found out in trials in Victoria following the first accident and immediately either ground the aircraft or issue a statement saying the aircraft is safe.
Don't believe that ATSB and CAsA don't communicate they are joined at the hip.
The industry needs immediate advice from CAsA and RAA is it safe to fly?
I hope these two unfortunate aviators recover quickly from their injuries.
just a dumb pilot is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2018, 22:17
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I’m not certain that the inquest has started for the RAA one last year. That wouldn’t help with the timing of any recommendations and action plans. Here’s hoping that the coroner hands down some solid recommendations.


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Old 5th Oct 2018, 22:37
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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On the basis that this was a VH registered aircraft and that the flight controls were fully functioning at the time of the event..

What about something constructive such as again teaching incipient spin recovery.

The idea of not teaching it and then saying spins are prohibited is great until a pilot inadvertently finds the aircraft in this situation without the skills to identify and safely recover.

Instruction by instructors who themselves have never experienced these sorts of manoeuvres provides a conduit to progressively lower flight standards and capabilities of successive generations of GA pilots.

Our regulator at work (NOT)
Rashid Bacon is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2018, 22:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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The idea of not teaching it and then saying spins are prohibited is great until a pilot inadvertently finds the aircraft in this situation without the skills to identify and safely recover.
Agree. Rather like telling someone who cannot swim "I won't teach you how to swim but I will teach you how not to go near the water."
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Old 5th Oct 2018, 23:00
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Fine teach spin recovery will it make the aircraft and the pilot safe.
What if this aircraft has a tendency to Flat Spin and not come out?
This was tested at Latrobe Valley months ago?
What was the conclusion?
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Old 5th Oct 2018, 23:15
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Just a dumb pilot - Makes it a lot safer than if they had no training at all - recognising this early at the incipient stage provides some protection against continuing into a fully developed spin.
Arctaurus is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2018, 00:35
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Prior to that earlier incident in Victoria one of my friends visited a flying school somewhere in Australia to do a bit of dual flying in a Bristell and was particularly interested in seeing its stall behaviour .... "oh noo we don't do stalls in that aeroplane" .... no reason given.

If an aeroplane is not approved for intentional spins then I'd be very wary of "advanced" stall exercises with a student.

With CASA's new unique non-ICAO definition of aerobatics my opinion is that an instructor would require a spin training endorsement in order to teach the advanced stall exercises of the new Part 61 and use an aeroplane which is approved for intentional spins. I will put that to CASA at one of their upcoming Flight Instructor Safety Workshops.
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Old 6th Oct 2018, 00:49
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arctaurus View Post
Makes it a lot safer than if they had no training at all - recognising this early at the incipient stage provides some protection against continuing into a fully developed spin.
The major problem with that view is that the pilot then has no hope of recovering from an unintentional spin caused by something else e.g. a close encounter with the wake of another aircraft, or clear air turbulence

I have been aboard a single-engine piston training aircraft where the student pilot has, entirely unintentionally, put the aircraft into a rapid autorotative manouvre that very quickly became a fully developed spin. Once he had overcome the startle factor, his spin recovery training kicked in, and normal flight was resumed shortly thereafter, albeit with a slighty embarrassed air. It was pointed out to him that there could be little better advertisement for his spin training than that very incident.

Spins should be respected, definitely, but they should never be feared. Confidence in recognition and recovery comes with exposure to spin training. Not knowing about the behaviour of your craft in those corners of the envelope, where forces outside of your control may put you, is just plain daft. There is no such thing as risk-free flying, though the molly-coddling world we live in seems to give people the belief that a trip in an aircraft should be as simple as a drive in a car. It isn't.

Pilots need to get a grip on the skills that the blue yonder can, and will, throw at them and get proper flight training. Avoiding spin training is not proper flight training
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Old 6th Oct 2018, 01:26
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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SOAR AVIATION VH-YVX
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Old 6th Oct 2018, 02:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Bernoulli - Full spin training - I agree entirely, but trying to convince the muppet regulator of that could be problematic. At least incipient spin training was a former training requirement and would not be a bridge too far.

Last edited by Arctaurus; 6th Oct 2018 at 03:21.
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Old 6th Oct 2018, 02:42
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MrBernoulli View Post
. Avoiding spin training is not proper flight training
Most RA-Aus registered aircraft are not approved for spinning (the only one that I believe is certified for spin training is the Pipistrel Virus SW) it is therefore very difficult to get spin training when you are getting a recreational license because spinning is not allowed in an RA-Aus registered aircraft.

Is it the horse before the cart or the cart before the horse ?
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Old 6th Oct 2018, 03:01
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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An interesting video on YouTube of an LSA doing some sort of spin testing and the aircraft fails to recover. The cockpit / canopy looks very Bristell like.




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Old 6th Oct 2018, 08:58
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mcoates View Post
Most RA-Aus registered aircraft are not approved for spinning (the only one that I believe is certified for spin training is the Pipistrel Virus SW) it is therefore very difficult to get spin training when you are getting a recreational license because spinning is not allowed in an RA-Aus registered aircraft.
My point is that "recreational" licensing in aircraft that are not certified for spinning is asking for trouble.

All aircraft are at risk of getting in to some sort of auto-rotating condition, whether they are certified for spinning or not. If that occurs, it is all very well saying that they are not certified for spinning - the result will still very likely be a smoking hole in the ground. Knowing how to recover from an auto-rotative condition, in an aircraft certified for it or not, is one of the differences between being a properly trained pilot ...... or being dead. It really is that simple.

Do your training on an aircraft that can spin, or at least get a spinning recognition and recovery course on one. Lives are at stake.
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Old 6th Oct 2018, 09:03
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MrBernoulli View Post

My point is that "recreational" licensing in aircraft that are not certified for spinning is asking for trouble.

All aircraft are at risk of getting in to some sort of auto-rotating condition, whether they are certified for spinning or not. If that occurs, it is all very well saying that they are not certified for spinning - the result will still very likely be a smoking hole in the ground. Knowing how to recover from an auto-rotative condition, in an aircraft certified for it or not, is one of the differences between being a properly trained pilot ...... or being dead. It really is that simple.

Do your training on an aircraft that can spin, or at least get a spinning recognition and recovery course on one. Lives are at stake.
I agree with you 110%. Spinning into the ground takes way too many lives of recreational pilots regardless of RA-Aus or VH registration or whatever licence is held. Spinning doesn't discriminate when you don't have the proper training.
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 07:05
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
Unless I have missed it, nobody has mentioned differences in certification standards between a LSA and a FAR 23 (or equivalent,) aircraft, and, of course, with particular reference to a capability for spin recovery, if any.

That an aircraft is registered by RAOz or CASA is beside the point ----- what are it's certification required to be demonstrated in this area, is the whole point.

No matter how thorough your spin and recovery training, and currency, if you have the misfortune to spin an aircraft that may or may not recover, and is not required to demonstrate either reliable spin recover or be spin resistant, you are in big trouble.

I note that a lot of modern "looking" designs have a fin and rudder/horizontal stab. design that is not conducive (in theory) to good spin recovery. I well remember Henry Millicer's talk on the subject, and why a Victa did not have a "swept" fin, as was the then "new fashion" ---- See C-150 to C-152, and other Cessna of the era.

Unfortunately, the basic rules of aerodynamics have been resistant to being updated by the marketing department.

Do YOU know the actual aerodynamic behavior of the aircraft YOU are flying, in this corner of its flight envelope. You might be unpleasantly surprised. I strongly recommend you find out, and manage your operation accordingly.

Tootle pip!!

PS 1: I do know that the low wing Brumby was test flown through the most rigorous test regime, as far as spin and recovery is concerned, by a suitably qualified Experimental Test and Development pilot, even thought such was NOT required for LSA or RAOz certification ---- what is the status of what YOU fly??

PS 2: The same could be said for structural design standards --- what do you know about about gust loadings or fatigue standards for your LSA or similar "relaxed" certification.
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 10:22
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
.......................... Development pilot, even thought such was NOT required for LSA or RAOz certification --.

Sorry but there IS a requirement for LSA to have particular spin performance. Check the ASTM standard. Also RA-Aus don't certify LSA, CASA don't certify LSA.

The manufacturer self-certifies their aircraft was manufactured in compliance with the ASTM standards, Sorry but your wrong on both statements (i was on the F37 ASTM development committee for several years)
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 12:04
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Checkmate on that one old mate Leadie!


I am guessing that Soar are confident they know what went wrong as they are still currently flying their other Bristells, so seemingly not too concerned.

Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2018, 12:12
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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The problem with ASTM is that external testing is the "modus operandi" in developing standards. The manufacturer may have a vested interest in nominating and using a particular testing entity to obtain a particular result.

Self certification by LSA manufacturers would not seem to be a guarantee of empirical performance data.

So I wouldn't be placing too much confidence in the reported performance characteristics of some of these aircraft, especially with end of flight envelope data.

The question I do have is does CASA make any separate certification determination when registering an aircraft on the VH register v the RA AUS pathway (as was the case with the event aircraft at Stawell). I don't know.
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 21:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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It is a surprising fact that after many similar spin accidents, this aircraft is still being used for basic flight training. I'd be frankly somewhat anxious to see a student go on their first solo in that thing.
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Old 7th Oct 2018, 21:44
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rashid Bacon View Post
The question I do have is does CASA make any separate certification determination when registering an aircraft on the VH register v the RA AUS pathway (as was the case with the event aircraft at Stawell). I don't know.
There is no difference between LSA registration in the VH or RA-Aus category. The paperwork differs a little bit with regards to the application but all of the supporting documentation from the manufacturer is the same.

The manufacturer themselves does the self certification, there is no need to send it out to any third party.

Any audits that I have been involved with the FAA, they are only looking at the paperwork and structure inside the company for reporting ongoing problems in the fleet, they have not once looked further into the flight characteristics or performance claims of the aircraft.

This is lacking in my opinion because we know that there are aircraft registered in the LSA category (around the world) that don't stall anywhere near the stated figures but nobody in authority has ever called them out, they don't carry the required payload for minimum fuel standard pilot and passenger and in some cases exceed the imposed speed limit in the US certification categories (that does not apply to Australia)
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