Air NZ - Joint List

[RubberDogPoop]

In terms of “least qualified” to fly for Air NZ, by that logic CX SO’s must be vastly superior candidates to a turboprop skipper with all that jet time. Get a grip!! Take the job off the pedestal for a moment and look who they can put straight in to a jet in Europe.

Well, no. Cathay S/Os aren’t type-rated for one thing, more importantly Cathay Captains and F/Os were applying and they represented a “vastly superior” candidate than the lot of you. Why would the company want to hire external turboprop candidates when the same product exists in-country? Nice job again conflating the company’s requirement for external candidates to have jet time with the evil, ego driven “jet” pilots putting their job on a “pedestal”.

”They” put cadets into jets in Europe because there is NO GA! Singapore put their cadets into Learjets, and neither they, nor Cathay have subsidiary operations - stop comparing apples with durians. We have the Links, that is our cadetship! If you want to replicate Europe, stump up the cash because training a cadet sure as hell shouldn’t be a cost saving. Spend the money, train them appropriately and you are quite right, anyone can do it.

FYI the latest external Air NZ job listing no longer had jet time as a prerequisite. ATO time will suffice. The pool of externals has been depleted obviously with the rapid growth. When you say externals are more qualified we aren’t talking about Sully, Maverick and Goose lining up to fly an Airbus with a Koru on it these days.

The pool of externals has been depleted because no widebody Captain is coming home to sit at the bottom of a turboprop list, as they now fear - golden handcuffs and all that. It has little to do with the naive assessment that the “obvious rapid growth” is to blame.
Why would we need Sully, Mav and Goose - it’s just another aeroplane - just exactly who is putting the job on a “pedestal?”

The sooner the patronising propaganda line that a GOP list is going to disadvantage Link Pilots ends the better. For a start, if every course vacancy is filled via a GOP list (which includes the RSL at the bottom) then movement on to jet will be much quicker. At the moment there is a sense of rush to get on the list, to maximize your earning potential at the latter stage of your career. The rush would no longer be there and you could enjoy a decent career in regional and move on at a time that suits.

More people, less jobs - explain faster to me?

You might have your reasons to oppose the GOP list which are valid. But the ‘Jet boys’ looking out for our best interests isn’t one of them

28 and already so cynical! There are no new problems, and no new solutions my friend, the wheel just turns a full circle - the old boys have seen them all before, they have nothing to gain or lose, and many of them are indeed looking out for your best interests. No one thinks pilot development is enhanced by taking a 250hr pilot and have him not manipulate the controls 4 times a month, do you? 6 sectors a day on a turboprop might work though? Are you onboard now?
No one thinks $53k is enough to live on when required to live in Auckland, do you?
No one wants another clause in their contract that says “those employed before XX get....”

Everyone I’m sure is aware that the ill-advised rumour of the old boys challenging their position sparked a whole lot of paranoia. That threat can be controlled with legal jargon added to an amended CEA. If they don’t sign, they don’t get on GOP list but remain on an RSL.

Big of you to concede it was “ill-advised”, less so considering it “paranoia”. It’s your perception problem to fix since we, and we alone vote on the GOP list - maybe you should be more...polite? Again, as I suggested above, our intentions smack of self-interest, and yet these “old boys” are pure as driven snow? As it happens, I’d suggest they may be confused about what a GOP list is, as opposed to a joined seniority system some years down the track. Nonetheless if you can’t acknowledge the selfishness of those individuals but are prepared imply that “jet” pilots are similarly affected, then you’re being...naive, inconsistent...one of those?


Hows that rush for the door at regional going? Gangbusters yet?

[ElZilcho]

Originally Posted by KiwiAvi8er

The perception that someone hasn’t done the hard yards in GA doesn’t quite ring true. The current crop in their 20’s might have done fewer years in GA, but they’ve still worked in GA. The exception to that being cadet pilots with 320 ratings. So, you may be fortunate enough to time getting in to the job market alongside a growth period. I’d imagine if you were to start flight training in a few years time, there’s a good chance that your training costs will be covered. Somethings got to change to fix the supply line.

In terms of “least qualified” to fly for Air NZ, by that logic CX SO’s must be vastly superior candidates to a turboprop skipper with all that jet time. Get a grip!! Take the job off the pedestal for a moment and look who they can put straight in to a jet in Europe.

FYI the latest external Air NZ job listing no longer had jet time as a prerequisite. ATO time will suffice. The pool of externals has been depleted obviously with the rapid growth. When you say externals are more qualified we aren’t talking about Sully, Maverick and Goose lining up to fly an Airbus with a Koru on it these days.

The sooner the patronising propaganda line that a GOP list is going to disadvantage Link Pilots ends the better. For a start, if every course vacancy is filled via a GOP list (which includes the RSL at the bottom) then movement on to jet will be much quicker. At the moment there is a sense of rush to get on the list, to maximize your earning potential at the latter stage of your career. The rush would no longer be there and you could enjoy a decent career in regional and move on at a time that suits.

You might have your reasons to oppose the GOP list which are valid. But the ‘Jet boys’ looking out for our best interests isn’t one of them

Bolded: I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by twisting my words. Least qualified doesn't imply Regional Pilots cant do the job. Many of the externals we hired were already type rated on our Aircraft or similar types. We ran shortened courses for Jetstar Pilots to help alleviate the A320 crewing crises, and (unlike Euro Airlines), our A320 course was designed for existing Air NZ Pilots and not a "first Jet" course. I believe they have since modified it and/or added an extra 2 weeks for T-Prop Pilots to transition. And for what it's worth, yes, a Cathy Cadet if hired as an SO would be "more qualified" as they have experience operating in that environment.

I'm not sure why Link Pilots get so offended when someone points out that existing Jet Pilots are more qualified to fly Jets. With hundreds of former Link Pilots at Air NZ, it's obvious you're perfectly capable, but, in times of expansion, it just makes sense to bring in some more external experience. It also makes very little sense robbing Paul to pay Peter (i.e. grounding Regional A/C to Crew the Jets).

But lets talk about putting Air NZ on a pedestal for a moment... all this fuss about a job at Air NZ when almost every Airline in the South Pacific is hiring. Who's really putting on the pedestal here?

As for for the last comment about "Jet boys" not looking out for your best interests, well, I guess time will tell. If you're near to Top of the RSL, then I suppose it's hard to see the negatives and no one will convince you otherwise. Those at the bottom might not see at first, but when they realize no amount of hard work will get them any closer to an interview, they might not be so enthusiastic. Plenty of Link pilots who took quick commands due to past experience and/or less desirable bases landed Air NZ interviews out of seniority. Some might not agree with that, but I for one am not among them.

Don't be in such a rush to have the rest of your career dictated by Seniority. It's both a blessing and a curse.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Originally Posted by InZed

A quick google proves you wrong

Qualifications/Experience

Jet

NZCAA CPL or higherRequired NZCAA Instrument Rating (current) and

NZCAA MEIR (may be uncurrent)
Required NZCAA ATPL or all ATPL subjects passedPreferredNZCAA BTK/BGTRequired Hours (TT)1500Hours (Multi-engine Aeroplane)100Hours ATO100*Jet experienceRequiredInstrument Flight Time40Night Hours25English Language ProficiencyLevel 6

Explain how the Jetstar Dash 8 Pilots attended the interview then?? That also isn’t the expressions of interest listing which they had advertised a few months ago.....

[KiwiAvi8er]

Originally Posted by InZed

A quick google proves you wrong

Qualifications/Experience

Jet

NZCAA CPL or higherRequired NZCAA Instrument Rating (current) and

NZCAA MEIR (may be uncurrent)
Required NZCAA ATPL or all ATPL subjects passedPreferredNZCAA BTK/BGTRequired Hours (TT)1500Hours (Multi-engine Aeroplane)100Hours ATO100*Jet experienceRequiredInstrument Flight Time40Night Hours25English Language ProficiencyLevel 6

The expression of interest ad closed and is no longer on the Air New Zealand Page. See below

Expression of Interest - Air New Zealand Jet Closing 01 Jul 2018 23:55 Kia ora! We are now seeking expressions of interest for our Jet Fleet. This is a fantastic opportunity to join us and open yourself up to a challenging, fulfilling and rewarding career. Air New Zealand is one of the world's leading airlines delivering exceptional experiences to 13 million travellers every year. Our Pilots are highly technical, well rounded professionals who understand our business and are committed to delivering an exceptional service to our customers. We're proud to have recently received several globally recognised awards, including Airline of the Year (AirlineRatings.com). We are looking for passionate Pilots who have extensive flying experience. You will consider yourself a professional within the industry who is highly motivated and driven to achieve results both personally and for the business. Strong problem-solving skills, a clear customer focus and a can-do attitude are the attributes required to keep Air New Zealand operating at world class levels. To be considered for this opportunity, you must meet the following requirements: * NZCAA CPL* * NZCAA ATPL* or all NZ ATPL subjects passed * MEIR (current) * 1500 hours total time * 100 hours Multi-engine Aeroplane * 100 hours ATO** * 25 night hours * 40 hours Instrument Flight Time * NZCAA Class 1 Medical * * University Entrance / Equivalent * L6 English Language Proficiency or greater * Indefinite permanent residency of New Zealand or citizenship of New Zealand or Australia. An ability to travel overseas is required for the jet fleet including a valid passport with visas as required. What's in it for you? Our Pilots do more than fly planes, they take great pride in providing customers with safe and enjoyable journeys, wherever they travel with us. They are actively encouraged as a leader in all their roles. Throughout your career you'll have development opportunities in areas such as training, management and projects. To be considered for this role, please click on the "apply now" button. You will need to have your log book and licence information handy at the time of registration to complete this. If you already have an active application, please ensure that you update your profile and CV accordingly to reflect your current experience. We will be reviewing all applications on an ongoing basis and will be in touch with an outcome following the close date of 1 July 2018. *While you must meet these requirements prior to an offer of employment, we understand that you may have foreign-issued qualifications that could be converted to NZCAA licences. Should this be the case, we may consider your application while you are undertaking the conversion process with NZCAA. **Does not apply for military entry Recruiter details: Danielle Posa [email protected] Closing 01 Jul 2018 23:55 Job Details Reference #000006 Posted on 14 May 2018 Closes on 01 Jul 2018 23:55 Location(s) Auckland Expertise Pilots, Pilot Work type(s) Permanent More details (document) ApplyPrintEmail this job to a friend * Share * * * *

[Brakerider]

What happened to the Propstar drivers that interviewed was also terrible on Air NZ's part. To offer these guys interviews, tell them they were successful but unable to offer a position was a real kick in the teeth. I 100% see where the Link guys are coming from, but to say these guys are less suitable or qualified than a Cathay SO who hasn't landed a plane since the Tomahawk he flew at flying school is ridiculous.

[waterbottle]

Whittaker will be laughing away at the infighting that is going on.

Broadly speaking he has two aims to achieve. One is get rid of the SO pay scale. On current numbers that will save about 100k per pilot. How many SOs these days? 2-300? So there is 20-30 MILLION per year that he saves. The second aim is to reduce the power of the pilot group. Getting the Link guys into the jet CEA gives him a voting block of about 600 or so that have wildly different terms and conditions. A small carrot dangled to the Links gives him a third of the total pilot numbers, he doesn’t need many more to get contract chang through. We already have big problems in jet with the disparate working conditions of long haul and short haul. Generally the long haul guys I speak to have no real idea of the conditions on the Bus, and nor do they often care as their career choice means they will never fly the thing.

There are so many downsides to this whole thing, and no upside that improves on 70:30 hiring. We will never see an experienced external apply again (including RNZAF) because they see that they start off behind 600 Link pilots. We will see the loss of a well paid role by getting rid of SO to be replaced by cadets. I could go on all day, suffice to say there is one beneficiary from this plan, and it isn’t a pilot.

[RubberDogPoop]

Waterbottle - without a doubt there is a element of recovering the money lost over the S/O pay debacle, it was the ultimate own goal on the company’s part, but I do think they realise there is a genuine supply issue.
154 to answer your S/O question...

Brakerider - who has said that a Cathay S/O is more qualified than a Propstar Dash pilot?

Kiwi - “external” = overseas I would have thought, not external to the AirNZ group.

[Brakerider]

Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop

Brakerider - who has said that a Cathay S/O is more qualified than a Propstar Dash pilot?

Kiwi - “external” = overseas I would have thought, not external to the AirNZ group.

The company, and effectively NZALPA by refusing jet positions to people without Jet time (externally). Apparently P3 SO Time is worth more than Dash command.

[waterbottle]

There is currently a supply issue because the Company have scared away all externals. There are some very simple solutions to guaranteeing Link / GA supply but those won't make the Company money.

Just checked numbers and currently there are 180 SO, so thats 18 MILLION dollars per year they can save by getting rid of the SO pay scale and introducing a cadet / B scale. Thats significantly more than the cost to the Company of the SO pay issue, massively more in fact.

The Company certainly has an issue, but its entirely of their own making. Pilots have been giving them these warnings for a long time, giving the solutions as well but the Company won't listen. They are going to have to be very careful as the market is changing. More guys are going to look at the money on offer overseas and wonder why they are hanging around Air NZ. $25k USD per MONTH to fly in China is going to be very attractive.

[RubberDogPoop]

Originally Posted by Brakerider

The company, and effectively NZALPA by refusing jet positions to people without Jet time (externally). Apparently P3 SO Time is worth more than Dash command.

Quite the circular/misunderstood discussion this huh? Is it your contention that all pilots external to the AirNZ group are required to have jet time Brakerider? Is it your contention that the Propstar pilots were usurped by Cathay S/Os (Cadet S/Os at that)?

I’m not really sure where NZALPA fits into your statement... Shouldn’t you be happy that the COMPANY REQUIREMENT for external (read: overseas applicants) pilots to not only have the right to live and work in NZ, but are required to leap through the additional hurdle of having jet time? Doesn’t this protect jobs in New Zealand? (ergo, isn’t this something that NZALPA should support?) Do you have any recent example of a Cathay S/O being hired ahead of those with Dash commands?
The most recent hires from Cathay are widebody commands, and F/Os. The last S/Os hired as I recall were a couple of years back, and had some of that pesky fast jet, and tanker/AWACS time. Do you think their experience should be discounted for a Dash command? I am unaware of any Cathay cadet that has been hired EVER (think more F18, less Tomahawk...) Maybe you’ve got the wrong end of the stick?

As for:

To offer these guys interviews, tell them they were successful but unable to offer a position was a real kick in the teeth

Isn’t that what always goes on? Do an interview, get a “Yes” letter (though they have never actually said that), and then wait for a course? Some guys waited 6 months, some 4 years....
Sounds to me more like the unintended consequence of having to hire 70:30 - they simply have to put link pilots in ahead of non-group pilots (to make the distinction between locals and ex-pats) to maintain the ratio right now.

[Brakerider]

I personally know of External turboprop applicants who have been told they require Jet time to join the jet fleet, despite interviewing successfully for jet positions (during that small window where it was not listed as a pre-requisite)

I also know of low time Cathay SOs that have Jet interviews coming up, for jet positions.

So take what you will of that. But my interpretation is as above.

[AerocatS2A]

RubberDog,

"External" does not mean overseas, it means external to the Air NZ group. The requirements for the jet positions are the same for anyone outside the Air NZ group.

Also, external turboprop drivers are not being told yes and then having to wait for a start date, they are being told "You interviewed well but for political reasons we are unable to hire you, how about joining one of the link airlines?"

Finally, I'm pretty sure there was a Cathay cadet on a June interview who was given a yes.

[ElZilcho]

Firstly, "External" refers to anyone not currently in the Link group, not specifically to foreign/overseas applicants. So a Kiwi Pilot, flying for Virgin (for example) is still an external.

Secondly, as RubberDog already stated, one of the "Cathay SO's" that I've met was ex RAAF. The others (who I've met anyway) might have started as SO's/Cadets but were FO's when they came to Air NZ. It never ceases to amaze me how people on these forums are so quick to rubbish the experience of others. Do you have access to all these "unworthy" Cathay Pilots CV's?

Third, the recent Pathways communication said the Company will be adding Link Pilots to the Air NZ list at the rate of 70:30, meaning for every external hired, 3 Link Pilots get on the GOP list. So does it really matter where these externals are coming from? Link Pilots are getting their Tag & Release number.

Lastly, who the F do some of you think you are? It just screams of an entitlement complex when you jump online and start rubbishing other Pilots because you deem them somehow unworthy. It's been stated countless times that Link Pilots are being skipped over, not because they can't do the job, but because they can't be released due to crewing levels. Whoever the Company hires, they still need to pass the interview, Type Rating and Line Training. So if Cathay Cadets are managing, then who are any of you to judge them? The Airbus crewing crisis is (mostly) over.. although Commands are getting lower and lower on the list, so the demand for Jet Time, specifically Airbus time, is no longer required. It also doesn't help. (as has already been pointed out), that many of the more experienced externals are pulling their applications because it's simply not worth joining behind hundreds of regional Pilots... there's better Jobs elsewhere.

[AerocatS2A]

If that was aimed at me, you misunderstand, I have no issue with who gets in, just pointing out that at least one Cathay cadet had indeed interviewed recently.

[ElZilcho]

Originally Posted by AerocatS2A

If that was aimed at me, you misunderstand, I have no issue with who gets in, just pointing out that at least one Cathay cadet had indeed interviewed recently.

​​​​​​

Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a response to the general tone of the thread.

[Ollie Onion]

The only way forward for pilot supply and career path is to have a group list, by implementing a group list there will be some short term ‘pain’, there always is. The SO position is a perfect one for ‘Cadet’ level pilots, the entry into Air NZ would be via the SO ‘Cadet’ position, FO Turbo Props or FO A320 (if jet time). It makes sense that the FO turbo prop should be paid more than the SO Jet and both should be paid less than the FO A320, that then creates as path where pilots won’t just wait out their time in seats where their experience could be used better elsewhere because of financial reasons. External Pilots who want to work for Air NZ will still apply, when I was overseas and looking to come back I would have taken either an FO position on Turbo Prop or Jet especially if it got me a seniority number on the group list, fact was though at the time Air NZ Jet weren’t hiring and Air Nelson required recent NZ experience at the time so I went down another path. Yes it does away with the ‘well paid SO rank eventually but surely this is just the way of the world, when all the dust settles then the career SO Jet, FO turbo Prop, FO Jet, then CP Turboprop, FO Longhaul and CP anywhere should be a great career.

[RubberDogPoop]

Originally Posted by AerocatS2A

RubberDog,

"External" does not mean overseas, it means external to the Air NZ group. The requirements for the jet positions are the same for anyone outside the Air NZ group.

Also, external turboprop drivers are not being told yes and then having to wait for a start date, they are being told "You interviewed well but for political reasons we are unable to hire you, how about joining one of the link airlines?"

Finally, I'm pretty sure there was a Cathay cadet on a June interview who was given a yes.

It ("external") never used to be Aerocat, but then nobody currently flying in NZ ever needed jet time either! How exactly would they get that, in New Zealand? Given AirNZ are the major jet operator in the country, you could hardly be reasonably expected to rock up with jet time could you? Never had to, countless Eagle, Air Nelson, Mt Cook, Origin, Air National, Rex, etc pilots will attest to that. I am trying to clear up the distinction between "external", non-group but still NZ resident pilots vs "external", to New Zealand, pilots.

As for the requirements being the same, are the interviewees from propstar, New Zealanders, or are they deemed to be Australian? (And therefore require jet time?)

I guess the "political reasons" would be something to do with 70:30, no? Hiring 3 Propstar pilots actually means hiring 10. Is that something the company wants or needs? And I'd suggest given the limbo that the pathways project is in, with no clear view on whether a new-joiner is about to "jump the queue" of long-suffering Link pilots and upset them some more, or whether the successful candidate is about to end up 600 people lower down the list than they thought, perhaps they playing it safe?

I guess that Cadet generated 1.5-ish other positions in that case? Is he a Kiwi, with GA experience, or a HKG national, genuinely at 250hrs and a Cathay P2X "type-rating"?

[mattyj]

I dunno about cadets being FOs on ATRs flying into dodgy 1400m long New Zealand runways built cynically in directions that aren’t into the prevailing and gusty winds..call me old fashioned but that requires a little GA time..

[ElZilcho]

Originally Posted by mattyj

I dunno about cadets being FOs on ATRs flying into dodgy 1400m long New Zealand runways built cynically in directions that aren’t into the prevailing and gusty winds..call me old fashioned but that requires a little GA time..

That can easily be solved via Captains only approaches and/or more restrictive met conditions for junior FO's.

They certainly wont learn how to operate in the Link environment by sitting in the middle seat of a widebody for 2+ years,

[waterbottle]

Originally Posted by Ollie Onion

The only way forward for pilot supply and career path is to have a group list, by implementing a group list there will be some short term ‘pain’, there always is. The SO position is a perfect one for ‘Cadet’ level pilots, the entry into Air NZ would be via the SO ‘Cadet’ position, FO Turbo Props or FO A320 (if jet time). It makes sense that the FO turbo prop should be paid more than the SO Jet and both should be paid less than the FO A320, that then creates as path where pilots won’t just wait out their time in seats where their experience could be used better elsewhere because of financial reasons. External Pilots who want to work for Air NZ will still apply, when I was overseas and looking to come back I would have taken either an FO position on Turbo Prop or Jet especially if it got me a seniority number on the group list, fact was though at the time Air NZ Jet weren’t hiring and Air Nelson required recent NZ experience at the time so I went down another path. Yes it does away with the ‘well paid SO rank eventually but surely this is just the way of the world, when all the dust settles then the career SO Jet, FO turbo Prop, FO Jet, then CP Turboprop, FO Longhaul and CP anywhere should be a great career.

Dear Lord I hope this guy isn’t voting on this.