Employment conditions in GA
Employment conditions in GA
While waiting for my group certificate to arrive (one day maybe? I guess following employment law is hard) I figured it is time to get something off my chest.
Why is it so damn hard for operators to follow even the most basic parts of employment law?
As pilots we even lionize employers that follow the award. It is crazy, the award is the bare minimum standards for employment, there shouldn't be a pat on the back for doing the minimum, I know operators aren't in the pat on the back business when pilots do the bare minimum. There was a discussion on the book of faces a few days ago where i asked if a former employer had tried to become compliant and a pilot defended the past and current practices by saying and I'm paraphrasing "how else are GA operators meant to survive?" It isn't a pilot issue if the business model doesn't support following the award, and sadly it only takes one operator in an area to break the law and force prices down for everyone until nobody can stay in business.
Why as a group we are so short sighted that we don't go to the union, or report things like underpayment or sham contracting to the FWC I will never know.
It was at least a bit heartening to see the bloke from Orange (i think) get slammed on facebook for his little hangar work for hours scheme but even then people were interested and tagging their mates.
We really do need to try better
Why is it so damn hard for operators to follow even the most basic parts of employment law?
As pilots we even lionize employers that follow the award. It is crazy, the award is the bare minimum standards for employment, there shouldn't be a pat on the back for doing the minimum, I know operators aren't in the pat on the back business when pilots do the bare minimum. There was a discussion on the book of faces a few days ago where i asked if a former employer had tried to become compliant and a pilot defended the past and current practices by saying and I'm paraphrasing "how else are GA operators meant to survive?" It isn't a pilot issue if the business model doesn't support following the award, and sadly it only takes one operator in an area to break the law and force prices down for everyone until nobody can stay in business.
Why as a group we are so short sighted that we don't go to the union, or report things like underpayment or sham contracting to the FWC I will never know.
It was at least a bit heartening to see the bloke from Orange (i think) get slammed on facebook for his little hangar work for hours scheme but even then people were interested and tagging their mates.
We really do need to try better
For as long as people will accept slave wages those employers will continue to get away with it. I was told by a stude who works for the ATO that they will only investigate sham contracting if they are losing more than a certain amount, which had a lot of noughts in it. That was before FWA was in place. There is no excuse now.
It's not just the smaller operators, how about the big behemoths that have gone under and closed down with the staff left high and dry with no super etc.
Salary sacrificing for flying training is something that has to be managed carefully and calculated precisely to be fair.
It's not just the smaller operators, how about the big behemoths that have gone under and closed down with the staff left high and dry with no super etc.
Salary sacrificing for flying training is something that has to be managed carefully and calculated precisely to be fair.
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Agree with hillbillybob.
the amount of crooks that have weaseled their way into GA is amazing.
Unpaid training, pay less than award, unpaid allowances, being pressured into breaking flight and duty limitation, working for the hours in your logbook all has to end.
FW kicks up a stink when 7/11 workers are paid 50 cents an hour below their award, which they rightfully should, but aviation is put in the too hard basket.
Low hour pilots lots are most vulnerable, maybe they should have free membership to the union?
the amount of crooks that have weaseled their way into GA is amazing.
Unpaid training, pay less than award, unpaid allowances, being pressured into breaking flight and duty limitation, working for the hours in your logbook all has to end.
FW kicks up a stink when 7/11 workers are paid 50 cents an hour below their award, which they rightfully should, but aviation is put in the too hard basket.
Low hour pilots lots are most vulnerable, maybe they should have free membership to the union?
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There is always a career with gov.au, and for 40 years you get to finish at 1621 hours every day. You might even get an office with a view, of a car park, or railway station.
While waiting for my group certificate to arrive (one day maybe? I guess following employment law is hard) I figured it is time to get something off my chest.
Why is it so damn hard for operators to follow even the most basic parts of employment law?
As pilots we even lionize employers that follow the award. It is crazy, the award is the bare minimum standards for employment, there shouldn't be a pat on the back for doing the minimum, I know operators aren't in the pat on the back business when pilots do the bare minimum. There was a discussion on the book of faces a few days ago where i asked if a former employer had tried to become compliant and a pilot defended the past and current practices by saying and I'm paraphrasing "how else are GA operators meant to survive?" It isn't a pilot issue if the business model doesn't support following the award, and sadly it only takes one operator in an area to break the law and force prices down for everyone until nobody can stay in business.
Why as a group we are so short sighted that we don't go to the union, or report things like underpayment or sham contracting to the FWC I will never know.
It was at least a bit heartening to see the bloke from Orange (i think) get slammed on facebook for his little hangar work for hours scheme but even then people were interested and tagging their mates.
We really do need to try better
Why is it so damn hard for operators to follow even the most basic parts of employment law?
As pilots we even lionize employers that follow the award. It is crazy, the award is the bare minimum standards for employment, there shouldn't be a pat on the back for doing the minimum, I know operators aren't in the pat on the back business when pilots do the bare minimum. There was a discussion on the book of faces a few days ago where i asked if a former employer had tried to become compliant and a pilot defended the past and current practices by saying and I'm paraphrasing "how else are GA operators meant to survive?" It isn't a pilot issue if the business model doesn't support following the award, and sadly it only takes one operator in an area to break the law and force prices down for everyone until nobody can stay in business.
Why as a group we are so short sighted that we don't go to the union, or report things like underpayment or sham contracting to the FWC I will never know.
It was at least a bit heartening to see the bloke from Orange (i think) get slammed on facebook for his little hangar work for hours scheme but even then people were interested and tagging their mates.
We really do need to try better
Edited to add: as one soon to be joining the GA ranks, I keep hearing that hiring and conditions are better than ever now. But when I see threads like this, I just remind myself again to take the optimism with a large grain of salt
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"If you GA peasants don't like earning $50k/yr for 60 hours a week work then go get another job"
Pretty standard GA attitude in Aus.
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It's pretty simple really, supply and demand.
As you enter your first flying job in GA(not an easy thing to do for some, I had to pour beers at the local pub for 6 months before getting a sniff at my first flying job) you will have 0 experience.
Having 0 experience means you are expendable because the company has but to only shake a tree and your replacement will fall out. There is literately a line out the door of pilots ready to take your job when you stuff up or kick up a fuss about your conditions.
Also some GA operators would rather get rid of you and have the planes stay on the ground for a while till they replace you than deal with your BS, it would just be easier for them.
As I was told when I first started "if you don't like the conditions, there's the road..." and it was like that. People put up with poor slave conditions till you get enough experience to move on. The more experience you get, the less expendable you are.. hence the better conditions you get.
You can jump up and down about the conditions to the union or fair work Australia or even to your mommy and all that will happen is you will be out of a job but this time you'll have that reputation as a whistle blower and then nobody will hire you.
As you enter your first flying job in GA(not an easy thing to do for some, I had to pour beers at the local pub for 6 months before getting a sniff at my first flying job) you will have 0 experience.
Having 0 experience means you are expendable because the company has but to only shake a tree and your replacement will fall out. There is literately a line out the door of pilots ready to take your job when you stuff up or kick up a fuss about your conditions.
Also some GA operators would rather get rid of you and have the planes stay on the ground for a while till they replace you than deal with your BS, it would just be easier for them.
As I was told when I first started "if you don't like the conditions, there's the road..." and it was like that. People put up with poor slave conditions till you get enough experience to move on. The more experience you get, the less expendable you are.. hence the better conditions you get.
You can jump up and down about the conditions to the union or fair work Australia or even to your mommy and all that will happen is you will be out of a job but this time you'll have that reputation as a whistle blower and then nobody will hire you.
Last edited by dabz; 18th Jul 2018 at 08:18.
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Within 8 years in GA I went from working 60+ hour weeks whilst only getting paid for 10-15 flight hours a week living off 2 minute noodles (Premium brand if i was lucky) and having 3 of us sleep in one room, to living in a beautiful place where the beers are cold and cheap, a VERY good full time tax free salary and more paid time off than i needed (actually wanted to go to work to keep current sometimes).
The difference...My first job had a 60% pilot turnover in 6 months (during the very early 2010's), my last, we lost 10% of our pilots in 2 years (current pilot *shortage*).
It's like any industry, with no experience you have to put up with some terrible conditions, Yes they mightn't be entirely legal, however these companies usually get a reputation and are unable to keep experienced people. Pilots must use them for what they are, a means to an end - Get your experience and move on!
Now I know I am going to get destroyed for saying this BUT it worked for me throughout my GA career. If you do manage to find an employer/boss who is amazing consider staying with them an extra 6-12 months until you get a good offer to move on. The novelty of a few extra seats or a second engine quickly wears off if it's for an employer who doesn't treat you like the professional you are.
The difference...My first job had a 60% pilot turnover in 6 months (during the very early 2010's), my last, we lost 10% of our pilots in 2 years (current pilot *shortage*).
It's like any industry, with no experience you have to put up with some terrible conditions, Yes they mightn't be entirely legal, however these companies usually get a reputation and are unable to keep experienced people. Pilots must use them for what they are, a means to an end - Get your experience and move on!
Now I know I am going to get destroyed for saying this BUT it worked for me throughout my GA career. If you do manage to find an employer/boss who is amazing consider staying with them an extra 6-12 months until you get a good offer to move on. The novelty of a few extra seats or a second engine quickly wears off if it's for an employer who doesn't treat you like the professional you are.
Within 8 years in GA I went from working 60+ hour weeks whilst only getting paid for 10-15 flight hours a week living off 2 minute noodles (Premium brand if i was lucky) and having 3 of us sleep in one room, to living in a beautiful place where the beers are cold and cheap, a VERY good full time tax free salary and more paid time off than i needed (actually wanted to go to work to keep current sometimes).
The difference...My first job had a 60% pilot turnover in 6 months (during the very early 2010's), my last, we lost 10% of our pilots in 2 years (current pilot *shortage*).
It's like any industry, with no experience you have to put up with some terrible conditions, Yes they mightn't be entirely legal, however these companies usually get a reputation and are unable to keep experienced people. Pilots must use them for what they are, a means to an end - Get your experience and move on!
Now I know I am going to get destroyed for saying this BUT it worked for me throughout my GA career. If you do manage to find an employer/boss who is amazing consider staying with them an extra 6-12 months until you get a good offer to move on. The novelty of a few extra seats or a second engine quickly wears off if it's for an employer who doesn't treat you like the professional you are.
The difference...My first job had a 60% pilot turnover in 6 months (during the very early 2010's), my last, we lost 10% of our pilots in 2 years (current pilot *shortage*).
It's like any industry, with no experience you have to put up with some terrible conditions, Yes they mightn't be entirely legal, however these companies usually get a reputation and are unable to keep experienced people. Pilots must use them for what they are, a means to an end - Get your experience and move on!
Now I know I am going to get destroyed for saying this BUT it worked for me throughout my GA career. If you do manage to find an employer/boss who is amazing consider staying with them an extra 6-12 months until you get a good offer to move on. The novelty of a few extra seats or a second engine quickly wears off if it's for an employer who doesn't treat you like the professional you are.
GA is your apprenticeship...
Yes we all went through the hard yards. I'm sure the experience of eating 2 minute noodles is definitely helping us program our FMCs and look down a little bit more on the cadets in the seats next to us. I loved my time in GA but I got exploited. It is not legal and it is not right. I for one want to see the industry be a better place. And all that better place I want is people pay the minimum effing wage!
Hey mate, can you please point me to the section in the award that lists the apprentice rates for a pilot? Can't seem to find it.
Yes we all went through the hard yards. I'm sure the experience of eating 2 minute noodles is definitely helping us program our FMCs and look down a little bit more on the cadets in the seats next to us. I loved my time in GA but I got exploited. It is not legal and it is not right. I for one want to see the industry be a better place. And all that better place I want is people pay the minimum effing wage!
Yes we all went through the hard yards. I'm sure the experience of eating 2 minute noodles is definitely helping us program our FMCs and look down a little bit more on the cadets in the seats next to us. I loved my time in GA but I got exploited. It is not legal and it is not right. I for one want to see the industry be a better place. And all that better place I want is people pay the minimum effing wage!
I have to admit you nailed my sentiments there pretty well, I'm surprised at the level of enthusiasm expressed in this thread when it comes to protecting operators that do the wrong (read illegal) thing.
I for one want to see the industry be a better place. And all that better place I want is people pay the minimum effing wage!
Working for below award is just screwing all the employers who do the right thing. It is often the people who work for below award, take the pitiful money to get the hours, who then start threads like this one complaining that their lives are unfair.
If you accept below award wages, you are telling everyone that you are not as good as the minimum pilot standard and you need to give your employer a discount for your own poor performance.
If you shake hands on that deal, at least have the integrity to suck it up and accept that you made a contract at that price and don't then go to fair work claiming you were screwed without consent. If you accepted those illegal wages and shook your employer's hand, you made a bargain and staked your honour on it. Learn and move on and have more self-confidence and more self-esteem at the next place.
People only offer below-award wages because a) they know people will accept them and b) they are scumbags willing to break Australian law to gain advantage over their competitors. If people refused to accept them, they would no longer be offered and weak people and pilots with low confidence would no longer feel obliged to accept them.
Personally, I don't want to employ the pilot who will offer to work for less than award.
Good luck.
^^^ exactly.
The employers that insist on sham contracting and the people that accept it are also a blight on GA.
The employers that insist on sham contracting and the people that accept it are also a blight on GA.
I never considered anything below award, never would I still got exploited. Super not being paid, having to constantly ‘battle’ to get the basic conditions of the original agreement to the point that I gave up and dusted off the resume, even had one employer happy for me to be grounded so they didn’t have to pay for a renewal. It’s really not that hard to do the right thing and hortatio I’m sure you do but, lots if not most don’t and it’s not always people being willing to be exploited that’s the issue. The fact that it still happens these days I find perplexing.
Both sides of the argument fall over somewhere. For example:
- It has been said in this thread that pilots accepting work below award are damaging the industry because they are offering a discount to employers. So two pilot walk in the door, one with a basic commercial license, the other with a commercial, multiengine IFR and instructor rating with multi and IFR training endorsements, turbine experience and aviation bachelor degree all paid for by him or her self (or a wealthy uncle or aunty). Should a potential employer take the basic commercial pilot because the other pilot is discounting the industry?
- On the other hand commercial pilots could band together and, together with a reformist government with an agenda to reform workers' rights, mandate that all pilots (workers) must join their union to be eligible to gain their commercial pilot's license (qualifications). The union could then negotiate with industry about how the education and training of pilots (workers) is paid for. Once you remove the requirement for an individual to pay for their own training you are in a position of selecting the best people for the job, and only pilots on industry funded training get to work for the industry.
