What would a cheap ADS-B base cost?
Thread Starter
What would a cheap ADS-B base cost?
To put in ADS-B coverage to ground level at places like Ballina or Wagga must be at a very low cost compared to the $1 billion Airservices budget. Surely there must be low cost ADS-B transceivers that can be installed at airports.
Of course, we have ADS-B at places like Birdsville to give the high level coverage above 30,000 feet – and these are expensive because I understand they require dual satellite communication links. However at places like Ballina or Wagga, couldn’t the ADS-B connection be done via the normal Airservices ground based links? Surely they exist in these areas for communications?
Can anyone give me a budgetary price of a low cost ADS-B unit that could be used at a place like this?
Of course, it doesn’t have to be 110% reliable, because if the ADS-B fails, (just as a communication link fails) pilots are trained on what to do.
There has been a lot of talk about the multi-lateration system in Tasmania, however there is not much talk about why there simply can’t be an ADS-B transceiver at Launceston, and one at Hobart airport, that would give coverage to ground level.
Is there anyone who reads PPRuNe who has communication with the suppliers of ADS-B ground stations? I feel sure by now there must be units available – possibly $10,000 each. How could they be that much more expensive? They are so bloody simple. The position accuracy comes from the certified GPS in the aircraft, so all the ground station is doing it interrogating and retransmitting a message.
It can’t be rocket science and can’t require huge cost.
I look forward to any useful advice.
Of course, we have ADS-B at places like Birdsville to give the high level coverage above 30,000 feet – and these are expensive because I understand they require dual satellite communication links. However at places like Ballina or Wagga, couldn’t the ADS-B connection be done via the normal Airservices ground based links? Surely they exist in these areas for communications?
Can anyone give me a budgetary price of a low cost ADS-B unit that could be used at a place like this?
Of course, it doesn’t have to be 110% reliable, because if the ADS-B fails, (just as a communication link fails) pilots are trained on what to do.
There has been a lot of talk about the multi-lateration system in Tasmania, however there is not much talk about why there simply can’t be an ADS-B transceiver at Launceston, and one at Hobart airport, that would give coverage to ground level.
Is there anyone who reads PPRuNe who has communication with the suppliers of ADS-B ground stations? I feel sure by now there must be units available – possibly $10,000 each. How could they be that much more expensive? They are so bloody simple. The position accuracy comes from the certified GPS in the aircraft, so all the ground station is doing it interrogating and retransmitting a message.
It can’t be rocket science and can’t require huge cost.
I look forward to any useful advice.
To put in ADS-B coverage to ground level at places like Ballina or Wagga must be at a very low cost compared to the $1 billion Airservices budget. Surely there must be low cost ADS-B transceivers that can be installed at airports.
Of course, we have ADS-B at places like Birdsville to give the high level coverage above 30,000 feet – and these are expensive because I understand they require dual satellite communication links. However at places like Ballina or Wagga, couldn’t the ADS-B connection be done via the normal Airservices ground based links? Surely they exist in these areas for communications?
Can anyone give me a budgetary price of a low cost ADS-B unit that could be used at a place like this?
Of course, it doesn’t have to be 110% reliable, because if the ADS-B fails, (just as a communication link fails) pilots are trained on what to do.
There has been a lot of talk about the multi-lateration system in Tasmania, however there is not much talk about why there simply can’t be an ADS-B transceiver at Launceston, and one at Hobart airport, that would give coverage to ground level.
Is there anyone who reads PPRuNe who has communication with the suppliers of ADS-B ground stations? I feel sure by now there must be units available – possibly $10,000 each. How could they be that much more expensive? They are so bloody simple. The position accuracy comes from the certified GPS in the aircraft, so all the ground station is doing it interrogating and retransmitting a message.
It can’t be rocket science and can’t require huge cost.
I look forward to any useful advice.
Of course, we have ADS-B at places like Birdsville to give the high level coverage above 30,000 feet – and these are expensive because I understand they require dual satellite communication links. However at places like Ballina or Wagga, couldn’t the ADS-B connection be done via the normal Airservices ground based links? Surely they exist in these areas for communications?
Can anyone give me a budgetary price of a low cost ADS-B unit that could be used at a place like this?
Of course, it doesn’t have to be 110% reliable, because if the ADS-B fails, (just as a communication link fails) pilots are trained on what to do.
There has been a lot of talk about the multi-lateration system in Tasmania, however there is not much talk about why there simply can’t be an ADS-B transceiver at Launceston, and one at Hobart airport, that would give coverage to ground level.
Is there anyone who reads PPRuNe who has communication with the suppliers of ADS-B ground stations? I feel sure by now there must be units available – possibly $10,000 each. How could they be that much more expensive? They are so bloody simple. The position accuracy comes from the certified GPS in the aircraft, so all the ground station is doing it interrogating and retransmitting a message.
It can’t be rocket science and can’t require huge cost.
I look forward to any useful advice.
One of these...and one of these... will give you the ability to receive ADS-b signals. There will also be a few bits and pieces like a memory card and a power supply, if you shop carefully you can get all the parts for about $100. See the details here: http://stratux.me/
They are actually quite fun to play with...
Not sure I understand your question. Are we talking about a receive only capability on the ground connected into the internet? If so "No-One" is quite right, a RPI with a low-cost USB receiver will quite happily perform that function. If that is not what you are asking about then what additional function are you after?
Silicon Chip magazine had a nice couple of articles about 5 years ago describing how to make a receiver and its antenna:
Track Aircraft On Your Own ADS-B Receiving Station - August 2013 - Silicon Chip Online
Collinear Antennas For Aircraft ADS-B Signals - September 2013 - Silicon Chip Online
If AsA wants to pay $10k for each one of these then I'll happily make them for them.
Track Aircraft On Your Own ADS-B Receiving Station - August 2013 - Silicon Chip Online
Collinear Antennas For Aircraft ADS-B Signals - September 2013 - Silicon Chip Online
If AsA wants to pay $10k for each one of these then I'll happily make them for them.
Folks,
The answer is we don't know, becasue of the costs of complying with the certification standards of anything that is going to feed into the AsA computers.
Having a stand alone receiver and display that could be placed in a tower cab is a bit too innovative and agile for the "system".
Tootle pip!!
The answer is we don't know, becasue of the costs of complying with the certification standards of anything that is going to feed into the AsA computers.
Having a stand alone receiver and display that could be placed in a tower cab is a bit too innovative and agile for the "system".
Tootle pip!!
Folks,
The answer is we don't know, becasue of the costs of complying with the certification standards of anything that is going to feed into the AsA computers.
Having a stand alone receiver and display that could be placed in a tower cab is a bit too innovative and agile for the "system".
Tootle pip!!
The answer is we don't know, becasue of the costs of complying with the certification standards of anything that is going to feed into the AsA computers.
Having a stand alone receiver and display that could be placed in a tower cab is a bit too innovative and agile for the "system".
Tootle pip!!
Anything that CASA or AsA demands beyond that is a compliance cost and needs to be justified.
Techo: 50hours/wk @$100/hr is $5k
Field Inspector with checklist: 30hrs/wk @$500/hr is $15K.
Total certification cost is $20K
Amortize over 1000 certified units = $20/unit
Certified units cost $1020, discount rate $1000/unit.
Of course not, which is why a transponder is one of the few bits of avionics that must meet relevant TSO standards for operation under CFR 91 FAA operations in US.
Tootle pip!!
Not!
I think that is Dick's point though. How much testing do we really need? The aircraft technology is where the important certification has already taken place. All the ADS-B receiver is doing is detecting the aircraft transmission and then relaying it through a communication line. The receiver either picks up a signal or not, and if the micro-computer fails it fails so badly that nothing sensible come out of it-- the system either works or completely fails. In the initial certification you may want to check that it works properly so you may get ATC to query pilots for position reports, or perhaps test it in a radar environment and cross check it with the ADS-B output. You may even continue to operate it that way over a period of a year until you have confidence in the system before ceasing requirements for verbal position reports or turning off the radar. How much more testing is needed? Just stating a vague 'safety' concern like that is what causes costs to escalate exponentially.
Ummm, so you'd be happy with a system that hasn't been thoroughly tested and properly certified to display correctly - the controller might just vector you into Mt Barrow, no big deal. Same for reliability.
Just stating a vague "she'll be right after 100 hours of random testing" really demonstrates safe operation. Not!
Just stating a vague "she'll be right after 100 hours of random testing" really demonstrates safe operation. Not!
Ummm, so you'd be happy with a system that hasn't been thoroughly tested and properly certified to display correctly - the controller might just vector you into Mt Barrow, no big deal. Same for reliability.
Just stating a vague "she'll be right after 100 hours of random testing" really demonstrates safe operation. Not!
Just stating a vague "she'll be right after 100 hours of random testing" really demonstrates safe operation. Not!
And you have to remember that it's being used as part of a system that is safety critical. It has to prove it will play nicely with whatever system it's feeding, is reliable enough, can be fault monitored.
That's interesting and I agree it is part of a safety critical system, but you did not answer the question.
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Here's an idea... ADSB is required mostly in rural areas. The cost for an ADSB-in receiver in conjunction with a satellite dish install is bugger all.
On a few country properties, tell each cocky we're going to install another bit of gear with your dish, and we'll pay you $50 a year to cover the minimal additional electricity bill and the minimal amount of data generated. 1000 sites, $50K a year "royalties to farms" plus equipment replacement.
Bam - nation-wide ADSB coverage at lower levels.
On a few country properties, tell each cocky we're going to install another bit of gear with your dish, and we'll pay you $50 a year to cover the minimal additional electricity bill and the minimal amount of data generated. 1000 sites, $50K a year "royalties to farms" plus equipment replacement.
Bam - nation-wide ADSB coverage at lower levels.
There are locations with ADSB ground stations (Dubbo is one that I know of) but they are not being used. There isn't redundant satellite uplinks so the data from the ADSB site isn't being used.
So at lower levels procedural separation is used all the time, not just in the case when the single satellite uplink has failed.
So at lower levels procedural separation is used all the time, not just in the case when the single satellite uplink has failed.
Bevan, now that is an interesting tidbit of information. Someone posted a while ago how his observation of ADS-B coverage dropped off considerably in that part of the country. Methinks he was around Orange where he noticed he was getting "services terminated"
Perhaps you could tell me how much verification and validation is required to certify such a system?
I don't think a rinky dinky $100 receiver quite cuts it.
