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GA SUMMIT 2018 - RESOLUTIONS

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Old 10th Jul 2018, 10:35
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GA SUMMIT 2018 - RESOLUTIONS


Last edited by AOPA; 19th Jul 2018 at 03:50.
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Old 10th Jul 2018, 20:40
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Why do you bother down there, waisting your time.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 00:12
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Why do you bother down there, wasting your time.
Mike Smith spent some time over the Dinner giving a very entertaining talk about his experience setting up and operating a flying school and maintenance shop in California.

I think half the room is currently planning to move to the USA.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 02:00
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Horatio I already have my ticket booked. I fly with Mike every year when I go over there.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 03:20
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Leaf Blower, come to USA the land which invented the aircraft. Honestly when you wake up you do what you want within reason the laws and rules are a guide in USA not " strictly enforced" logic, circumstance and common sense prevail in most cases. Like I said good luck down there, what was once such an easy going country with vast space for GA has been destroyed by left wing Government ideology.
Many moons ago spent time with the Hazleton brothers out there in Parks and Orange, how things have changed........
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 03:50
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Why do you bother down there, waisting your time.
Thanks for the advice. My friends in GA in California are all upping stakes not because of the FAA but all levels of Government imposition.

By the way one thing I do see in the USofA are big "Waists".

Down here this is how we spell "wasting"....
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 04:08
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2.4.1 (1) kills any hope of real reform stone dead on arrival. The phrase "the highest level of safety" is meaningless gobbledegook that allows CASA to do what it likes. the phrase should have said "the highest international standards of aviation safety". These are real concrete standards that form the foundation of an open, transparent audit able system of risk management. ICAO Document 9859 refers.

Without such standards you are wasting your time because, as the AAT has demonstrated time and again, "the highest level" trumps common sense, procedural fairness and natural justice. See Reubel AAT decision (2018) for example:

56. Section 9A deals with the performance of those functions:

(1) In exercising its powers and performing its functions, CASA must regard the safety of air navigation as the most important consideration.

(2) Subject to subsection (1), CASA must exercise its powers and perform its functions in a manner that ensures that, as far as is practicable, the environment is protected from:

(a) the effects of the operation and use of aircraft; and

(b) the effects associated with the operation and use of aircraft.”
  1. It will be noted that the Act mandates the primacy of air safety over all other considerations. This obligation permeates all aspects of the civil aviation regulatory regime. It is the prism through which the Respondent, its employees or agents must focus their endeavours and calibrate their actions. However, it would be a mistake to confuse primacy with dominance or exclusivity. Although air safety is the primary consideration for a decision-maker under the Act or Regulations, it is by no means the only consideration. Other worthy public interest considerations, including cost, efficiency, effectiveness, environmental protection, noise disturbance, public access to aviation services and a viable civil aviation industry, can and should be taken into account. Civil aviation safety considerations do not exclude those matters from a decision-makers purview. However, when safety considerations are at odds with any other consideration, a decision-maker is required to recognise the primacy of safety in the hierarchy of relevant considerations.
The gist of the opinion is that, having paid due regard to the safety god(in bold) the AAT commissioner is now free to do whatever he likes as a sop to common sense, procedural fairness and natural justice because he is under no statutory obligation to give any weight to the calculations of the medical specialists at all, nor any natural rights of the pilot

This is the gist of the effing whole problem' the great god safety's pronouncements are what CASA says they are with no measurable or provable basis in fact. The system is downright pre enlightenment medieval thinking.

Well done for trying guys, but your changes to 9A are rendered meaningless by failure to change 2.4.1 (1)

...Written off the Island of Vis, Croatia and now back to swimming.


Last edited by Sunfish; 11th Jul 2018 at 04:28.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 07:38
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Some thoughts prompted by the "AOPA Minutes" have come to mind.

Aviation is booming world wide, and there are financial opportunities for Australian training establishments to benefit from training (and educating) international students to high standards as pilots or aircraft maintenance engineers. But these opportunities face some administrative hurdles.

1. The lack of alignment of CASRs with FAA/EASA means that a CASA sign off does not easily translate to a home certification for an international student when they successfully finish training in Australia, unless that organisation has pre-approved certification (rare in Aus).

2. The Australian Qualifications Framework is a very poor home for pilot and engineer education (which needs certification as well) because the Civil Aviation Act dictates that ONLY CASA approved personnel can recommend licensing (a good thing IMO). The AQF is largely irrelevant for aviation training although it is through this pathway that students can gain diplomas etc, and such academic qualifications are often sought by privately funded International students.

There is a great complexity in these two issues, and I wouldn't pretend to be able to articulate all of the problems. But identifying and articulating the problems carefully, accurately and in detail is a necessary first step toward providing solutions.

Changing the Civil Aviation Act in line with worlds best practice including outcome based regulation would seem to be a good start, but what is needed is a truly expert Panel that can work to a time frame. (I am reminded that the Forsyth Committee produced the ASRR in around 6 to 7 months, while government response times move more on geological time scales). Such a Panel needs to be set up by the Minister of IR,D&C, and serviced by that Department.

A subpanel dealing with the practical alignment of CASRs with EASA/FAA also needs establishing, with a view to not only simplifying CASRs but also to enhancing economic opportunities with our rapidly growing neighbour states. Once the nature of the alignment becomes clear, syllabi can be redesigned.

Lastly, with regard to the AQF, PhillipsKPA provided a review of the AQF earlier this year to the Federal Dept of Education. A recent article of June 15 in the Campus Morning Mail states "Hopefully they (my words; the government) read the best-bits very slowly which are the scathing indictment (at least by PhillipsKPA’s understated standards) of the voced (my words: vocational education) establishment’s inertia.....Virtually all of the substantive comments made in submissions to the 2009 – 2011 AQF review are still at the forefront of respondents’ concerns in 2018." Making the AQF useful to the aviation industry may prove an insurmountable problem, but the industry should be clear as to what is needed and why.

Oh, and if Australia doesn't get its act together, some other country will, so there is no time for dithering.

JM
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 07:47
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If this has been the start of a bloodless revolution...well and good. But I fear not.

Too hidebound, too long entrenched as the Power to let you live or kill you off in GA, until that culture of the bullies, the police mentality, the lying and spin doctoring BS that goes on in all levels of The CAsA Soviet is forced into the real world,..... NOTHING will change.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 10:12
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QUOTE:
"Aviation is booming world wide, and there are financial opportunities for Australian training establishments to benefit from training (and educating) international students to high standards as pilots or aircraft maintenance engineers. But these opportunities face some administrative hurdles."

Why would foreign students come to Australia to gain a certificate that's not recognised anywhere else in the world and pay double or more than the equivalent certificate gained elsewhere?

I know Australia is a great place to be, but the old saying "never give a sucker an even break" wears a bit thin after a while.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 12:18
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CASA

Here it all goes again. Approximately 20 years ago, CASA were tasked to review Australian aviation legislation. The existing Civil Aviation Act 9C requires them to do that. To date, the legislative shambles continues and we do not have a coherent set of regulations that are clear so that Australian aviation can operate without error. This situation represents a series of latent failures within the hysterical application by CASA of the Reason model for aviation systems safety (adding compliance on the end of the title), so that failure is guaranteed because everyone is struggling to find the correct legislation that applies to their operation. This is made worse by the incredible number of CASA Legislative Instruments, Non-Legislative Instruments, Authorisations, Designations, Exemptions, Instructions, Permissions and Permits, Specifications and Policy Statements. Even that is not the complete list!

Delegations under the Act and Regulations are then given to an incredible number of CASA inspectors who can then act as they please because "CASA must be satisfied" as indicated in the Civil Aviation Act Subdivision D Issue of AOCs. CASA is struggling to get qualified people because no-one wants to join an organisation that has the reputation it currently has within the industry. If this was not true then a GA Summit would not be required. CASA Human Resources now recruits "safety experts" who have university degrees in human factors but no flying, airworthiness or airport management backgrounds and are so busy giving the industry a hard time with Part 141 and Part 142 approvals that the approval process becomes very subjective, resulting in non-standardisation of the rules and inspectors who constantly state "in my opinion..." This means that they can do what they like and get away with it. CASA offices around the country are not standardised in the application of their duties hence the large list of administrative mechanisms as detailed above now working against the Australian aviation (especially general aviation) industry. There is no evidence that shows CASA Canberra actually knows what is going on in their Area Offices.

The Royal Aero Clubs of Queensland and South Australia have fully closed and the aero clubs at Townsville, Darwin and numerous other places have now closed their doors permanently. The Senate Estimates Committee (for Transport) have failed in making CASA do what it is supposed to do. The number of U-Tube presentations showing their incompetence is amazing. Other Federal agencies send their Commissioners or equivalent to the Senate Estimates Meetings sometimes accompanied by another representative from their agency and usually perform well. CASA arrives with up to 15 people and when asked by the Senators why there are so many people present they are told that they are required because of the need to ensure the questions can be answered. Responses to the Senators questions are then answered with, "I will take that on notice Senator, I do not have that information to hand," or " I will refer that to my Executive Manager (portfolio). Yet none of them have any of the answers to the questions asked and embark in public service jargon to cover their lack of knowledge. Incredibly, the Senate Estimates committee lets them get away with this very low performance meeting after meeting. This debacle has been going on for quite a while now. With a CEO on an unjustifiable salary in the vicinity of $600,000 dollars per annum and his subordinates also on massive salaries, the question of whether the Australian aviation industry is getting value for the massive funds expended on CASA and its other aviation agencies is very clear. The country is not getting any value. The internet shows CASA Area Managers declaring themselves "aviation experts," some on the basis that they were in non-flying roles in the air forces of other countries, but have absolutely no experience in Australia.

Small wonder the country has a very serious aviation problem with rural economic hubs closing rapidly with repercussions in all sorts of industries, loss of jobs, loss of commercial hubbing and communication and aeroplanes sadly parked everywhere. A lot of Australian airports are now almost at closure point. Australia needs to get rid of CASA and Airservices Australia completely and start again with a brand new staff recruited from people who are competent and have been in the Australian aviation sector for a significant period of time. Clearly CASA also needs to rid itself of its Human Resources and Office of Legal Counsel people (or whatever their latest title is) and outsource it to agencies that can do the job properly.

A good start would be to start again with a new Department under a Federal Government Minister and merging the aviation elements of the Department of Infrastructure and Transport, ATSB, CASA, Airservices Australia and the aviation sector of AMSA. The number of Federal Government agencies supposedly controlling aviation in Australia is superbly inefficient. It is made worse by interference from State Government transport departments also with dedicated aviation regulators.

Good luck with the meeting at Wagga. Maybe this time there is hope. However, this problem is well beyond the agenda proposed, but a start has to be made somewhere. Australian aviation is in a massive mess and it will take very dramatic steps by the House of Representatives and Senate to stop the current serious decline and especially the uncertainty caused by CASA's mishandling of aviation legislation.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 12:30
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.......and once a Federal election is called, all this work goes in the rubbish bin and we start again with a new minister who probably hates aviation with a passion like Albanese did.
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 21:32
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Originally Posted by thorn bird View Post
QUOTE:
"Aviation is booming world wide, and there are financial opportunities for Australian training establishments to benefit from training (and educating) international students to high standards as pilots or aircraft maintenance engineers. But these opportunities face some administrative hurdles."

Why would foreign students come to Australia to gain a certificate that's not recognised anywhere else in the world and pay double or more than the equivalent certificate gained elsewhere?

I know Australia is a great place to be, but the old saying "never give a sucker an even break" wears a bit thin after a while.
not to mention two or three times the price of the USA
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Old 11th Jul 2018, 22:06
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Yep, waste of time. So the meeting put out a bunch of motherhood statements. I expected nothing more.
Should have presented the Minister with a bound copy of the FARs along with the demand that these become the regs governing Australian aviation as of August 1, 2018. Anything else is a waste of time.
The problem is that Australians love being regulated. Everybody wants "permission" to do anything. If you don't believe me look at RAAus and GFA, both allegedly enthusiast organisations who "enthusiastically" make more and more rules to bind their members, in many cases in excess of what CASA requires of private pilots and aircraft owners. I see these hypocrites were at that meeting. Don't worry if the Minister wants to change a thing, they will squeal if it reduces their power and the ability to coerce funding from their "members". How are you a "member" of a CASA contractor which coerces you to be a "member" and extracts money with the authority of the State? This is just a way of CASA taxing the low end of aviation TWICE while evading its responsibilities to Parliament.
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 06:12
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Nothing will happen until some high profile person or a family member is sick in the bush and there is no RFDS plane or pilot available to pick them up and they pass away!!.Sadly this is the only time when questions will have to be answered by the bureaucracy that is CAsA.
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 11:56
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Thank goodness that I worked out (many years ago) that my membership of AOPA was a total waste of money.
I wonder how much Ben gets paid? For he is AOPA's Executive Director..
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 17:51
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Since by your own admission you are not a member gerry, it is absolutely none of your business what Ben gets paid nor has it any relevance to this thread.
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 19:35
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I agree Jenna, none of his / her...their business. One things for sure, he would be paid a hell of a lot less than the Tea Lady, sorry person, at CAsA.
Say what you like, but I admire Ben for his commitment and enthusiasm. May not agree with him all the time, but at least he is making an effort, instead of sitting at a keyboard wringing his hands and moaning "Woe is me". Pissing in the pot comes to mind but unlike the pot pissers he's actually making an effort.
It may all come to nought, but at least he trying, herding a bunch of cats with over inflated ego's into one room was an achievement in itself.
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Old 13th Jul 2018, 00:49
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I wonder how much Ben gets paid? For he is AOPA's Executive Director..
From what I know, not much. Less than a GA Charter pilot.

It may all come to nought, but at least he trying, herding a bunch of cats with over inflated ego's into one room was an achievement in itself.

Amen.
The pollies are always very quick to play the division card - "We would like to help but the industry is divided and we can't just change what you want because the other groups will attack us".
Solution: Get all the groups in one place and prove to the Minister and his minions that we are of one mind.

I have to commend Ben & Aminta of AOPA, RAAus, RAAA and all the other groups and their leadership for putting aside their differences and making a united front. As many others have said, it is the first time in many many years that this has been achieved.
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Old 13th Jul 2018, 03:52
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Thank goodness that I worked out (many years ago) that my membership of AOPA was a total waste of money.
Goodbye...back to Days of Our Lives then!
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