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CASA approval required for a fly-in???

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CASA approval required for a fly-in???

Old 7th Jul 2018, 04:58
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CASA approval required for a fly-in???

Rumour going around that CASA are planning to implement requirements associated with a fly-in depending on how many aircraft are to attend (how do you know that?). Anyone know of this proposal and when it has or will be tabled for industry consultation. A fly-in in this context is one that is not open or advertised to the general public.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 07:03
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God,

35 years ago I organised an air race/ Nav trial with 254 aircraft competiting. The then dept gave us both guidance and active assistance in organising it.

The race had around 1,000 people and was a boom for the local towns tourism along with the GOOD PR General Aviation obtained.

I shudder to think what the result would be if anyone tried to do the same today.

Its all about control nothing to do with safety
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 07:33
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They can't control it period. CASA has no control on how a PIC conducts their flight and where they may or may not end up. If many aircraft happen to end up at the same destination within a timeframe so what? I have seen that happen numerous times with zero collective organisation and every aircraft was independant of each other.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 08:51
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody
They can't control it period. CASA has no control on how a PIC conducts their flight and where they may or may not end up. If many aircraft happen to end up at the same destination within a timeframe so what? I have seen that happen numerous times with zero collective organisation and every aircraft was independant of each other.
Can you please write to them (CASA) and tell them that.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 09:19
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Deliberate attempt to fragment the industry further and increase control by preventing disliked people from associating at such gatherings. If you don't kowtow your flyin won't get approved.

.....and of course they then need a new fully staffed fly in approvals and control section
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 09:58
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
Deliberate attempt to fragment the industry further and increase control by preventing disliked people from associating at such gatherings. If you don't kowtow your flyin won't get approved.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 10:18
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What was the source of the rumour?
Sunfish, how do you draw the conclusion that aviation people are disliked? There are many "fly for fun" aviators in CASA.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 10:23
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Originally Posted by Vag277
There are many "fly for fun" aviators in CASA.
Source? and what is "fun" ramp check at a remote field or FF points & per diem?
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 22:38
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Originally Posted by Vag277
What was the source of the rumour?.
Maybe from within CASA? Some still want power and control.? They should butt out. Let’s see the risk analysis and safety case.
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 22:52
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CASA don’t need to add any more rules to be able to control fly-ins. All they need to do is show up and pull ramp checks. All in the interest of safety, of course.
Fly-ins will soon cease. Safe skies are empty skies.

If the OP is talking private fly-ins not advertised for public attendance, ensure that at the organisation stage all participants are sworn to secrecy, and said fly-in is on a public holiday. All in the interest of risk management, of course.....
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 23:27
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Perhaps it should be a strict liability offence for more than a CASA-determined number of private aircraft to be in closer than a CASA-determined distance to each other, without CASA approval. Just cut and paste the bikie consorting laws. Let's face it: more than a few aircraft within a few square kilometres of airspace are bound to be a risk to the safety of air navigation and persons on the ground, and the pilots are bound to be in some kind of criminal conspiracy.

CASA should start with the Women Pilots Association's planned fly in to William Creek later this year. It's dangerous and unnatural enough to let one women fly, but think how dangerous and criminal it must be when more than one of 'them' get together!
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 23:30
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I ran a number of airshows in the late eighties. In that era, guys from CASA would turn up and HELP. By help, I mean sleeves rolled physical moving things, etc. They would be a source of advice and I can recall one instance when were were in danger of doing something wrong and the CASA guy had a quite discussion with the airshow director, told him the concerns and helped in the countermeasure.

Just think about that. A CASA guy working face to face with people to provide advice and system to create a safer event. Not a wet behind the ear public servant holding a rule book and looking for a reason to prosecute someone.

How on earth did we get here?

Talking to some guys that run airshows now, the hardest parts is not CASA (although they could be in no way described as helpful). The hardest part is the local council, insurance, creating risk management plans, making sure all the food vendors have the proper food handling certificates, etc.

There used to be a lot of airshows - country flying clubs, etc. Now there are few. There was (to my recollection) no incidents that demanded making running them harder, but now you pretty much need 2 years planning and a full time guy to deal with the bureaucracy.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 00:53
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It's dangerous and unnatural enough to let one women fly, but think how dangerous and criminal it must be when more than one of 'them' get together!
That would mean Trevor has been running a dangerous operation for many a year with his brood of Angels of the Outback. Where are you Pilotette?

Don't know the strength of the story of an airshow celebrating the opening of a strip, but it was said many, many years ago that, whatever name CASA went by at the time, reps were going around pinging folks for landing at the airstrip which they deemed was not up to standards due to the proximity of power lines at one end. The question was asked of them how they were going to get their piston Aero Commander, the only twin present, out of there.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 03:02
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Originally Posted by Vag277
What was the source of the rumour?
Sunfish, how do you draw the conclusion that aviation people are disliked? There are many "fly for fun" aviators in CASA.
See link to the CASA Air Display Admin Manual below , in particular the definitions on page 7.

Apparently, this is the result of the Swan River and Shoreham accidents. What CASA have since discovered is the air display approvals they have been granting may not have been legal and a whole new round of rules will need to be developed to allow display to continue.

CASA Air Display Amin Manual
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 03:55
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Also look at the CAR or CAO as to what an air display actually is, “organised flying”. CASAs air display manual invents extra requirements not supported by their own regulations. CASA will try, but cannot rule by advisory material. If not holding an Airshow or flying display, never mention “flying” in your promotions and invites. Planes, yes. Flying no.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 06:39
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CASA Manual says

"Fly-in, Competition or Cross country event:
A gathering of aircraft at an event or competition not on the basis of a general public invitation (A club event where no invitation is made to the general public [[similar clubs or groups exempted]) does not need to apply for an air display approval from CASA. CASA recommends that the safety management and third party considerations are followed."

Nothing to see here people, but I still would not be shouting my intentions to run a fly-in too loudly, because they do have every right to show up on the day.
Reminds me of the time a CASA FOI took a close interest in my little Sonex at a fly-in. Noting the lack of equipment on board he casually asked how I navigated. I pulled out my trusty motorcycle atlas, complete with pencilled-in tracks and distances. He thought I was joking but truth is that is exactly what I used. I found it a whole lot more comforting to know where all the roads and country pubs were than information offered by any 'official' aviation publication.
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 06:55
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I would suggest in future we don't actually go to any 'flyins" but should the local aero club be holding a bar-b-que lunch along with its Annual General Meeting then what ever means of transport we elect to use to attend that function is a matter for us alone.

CC
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Old 8th Jul 2018, 08:41
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
.....and of course they then need a new fully staffed fly in approvals and control section


Sunfish,
Already done, the rapidly expanding Sports Aviation Office Empire/Fiefdom/Silo/Administrative Center of Air Safety Excellence/description of choice is very much in being, and under "new management" will be out to "make its mark".

At the risk of being just a teensie weensie bit controversial, which I am not normally, but in this case I will make an exception:

"CASA has no power to control airshows, to the degree that any legislation administered by CASA that seeks to control airshows is unconstitutional".


Quite simply (nothing to do with Constitutional interpretation is ever simple) and unlike many/most other countries, the Commonwealth of Australia has, in fact, very limited powers over aviation.

In a nutshell, aviation is "state's rights", not the Commonwealth Government.

The Commonwealth power, such as it is, depends on the treaty making powers of the Commonwealth under the constitution, if it isn't in an aviation treaty (Chicago et al) CASA (the Commonwealth) has no power.

Show me the "airshow/fly-in" provisions of any aviation treaty.

Let's see what this brings out of the woodwork??

Tootle pip!!

PS: I am not saying this is a "good thing", as it happens I think there should be cost benefit justified rules to control genuine risks at "airshows", but not the increasingly over the top nonsense of "perceived" risks.
And certainly not the CASA propensity to treat any gathering as an "enhanced localised opportunity to conduct intensive aviation safety surveillance" (ramp checks to you and me.)
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 01:33
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In a nutshell, aviation is "state's rights", not the Commonwealth Government.
You might want to expand on that statement. When the Constitution came into being aviation didn't exist so how can they lay claim to aviation as part of their residual powers?
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 02:22
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Australian Constitution July 1900
First manned balloon flight in Australia, circa February 1858.
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