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Instructor Wages

Old 16th Jun 2018, 05:06
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Instructor Wages

I am looking for a real survey of realistic wages for a flight instructor in East Coast Australia.
People I have asked are ranging dramatically, one guy even included his super as part of his wage !!!! (tying to make him self look good I think)
There have been heaps of jobs advertised lately, Thinking of doing an instructor rating and getting back into GA after 10 years in Regionals.

One class 1 chap claimed he was on 80k AUD.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 07:23
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I hear UNSW pays over 80k to its g3 instructors. The rest of us are probably around the award at 42k.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 07:26
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Originally Posted by Ejector
I am looking for a real survey of realistic wages for a flight instructor in East Coast Australia.
People I have asked are ranging dramatically, one guy even included his super as part of his wage !!!! (tying to make him self look good I think)
There have been heaps of jobs advertised lately, Thinking of doing an instructor rating and getting back into GA after 10 years in Regionals.

One class 1 chap claimed he was on 80k AUD.

If a agreement is made and that agreement is greater than the award + the required super - then the super can, and often is deducted from the "wage" legally.

If you are paid an award or under an EBA, super is an added cost to those wages.

So yes a person can be on a personal agreement for $80,000 pa including super (and O/T or even shift penalties) but it depends on the base award rate.

So $73,000 + 9.5% = around $80,000.
That is around $36 per hour no shift and no loading.
Or $30 per hour on a 20% loading.

The minimum wage in 2 weeks will be very close to $19 per hour
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 08:17
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If you're in Sydney (and especially if you're ex-airline) talk to UNSW. They do pay well over award and are looking for experienced instructors; couldn't tell you the precise salary but they're uni wages, not GA.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 14:00
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Those rates are tough to live on I find. I find the discrepancy between the hourly rate that some of you quote and the dual-solo price difference quite significant actually. Dual rates are often $100 more expensive than solo ones. So if the grade 3 instructors make anywhere between $19 and, say, $40, does the operator pocket the rest (after super deductions)?
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 22:24
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I find the discrepancy between the hourly rate that some of you quote and the dual-solo price difference quite significant actually.
1/. Under the award, you are not entitled to claim pay for hours you have not flown. You weren't on board your student's aircraft when they did their solo (I hope).
2/. If a casual instructor is paid something for their student's solo flight time, that's a deal with their employer.
3/. To get an hourly award rate, divide the rates quoted above by Tulsami by 800 and multiply by 1.25
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 22:53
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Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower
1/. Under the award, you are not entitled to claim pay for hours you have not flown. You weren't on board your student's aircraft when they did their solo (I hope).
2/. If a casual instructor is paid something for their student's solo flight time, that's a deal with their employer.
3/. To get an hourly award rate, divide the rates quoted above by Tulsami by 800 and multiply by 1.25
  • (e) On each occasion a casual pilot is required to attend work the pilot is entitled to minimum payment as follows:


[11.3(e)(i) substituted by PR503362 from 01Nov10]
  •  
    • (i) for a period of duty (including rostered stand-by) of four hours or less,a minimum payment of two hours;and

      (ii) for a period of duty (including rostered stand-by) exceeding four hours,a minimum of four hours.

    • Is the students instructor required to attend the students solo flight?
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 00:59
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Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower
1/. Under the award, you are not entitled to claim pay for hours you have not flown. You weren't on board your student's aircraft when they did their solo (I hope).
2/. If a casual instructor is paid something for their student's solo flight time, that's a deal with their employer.
3/. To get an hourly award rate, divide the rates quoted above by Tulsami by 800 and multiply by 1.25
I'm not familiar with that award scheme that is being mentioned here. However from the above I am assuming that 800 is the expected number of hours a year an instructor will clock in. What is the 1.25 factor for?

Doing the math, you find that those lads will earn $43k/800*1.25 = $67 hourly. However I'm more interested in the fact that they'll clock in between around 15-16 hours of flight time a week which seems rather a low figure given that each day has roughly 8-10 hours of flyable time (granted: not in Mebourne at this time of the year ).

If these kids need 1500 hours to qualify for jobs at regionals, that's ~ $300k at the solo rate of $250 and assuming that they obtained roughly 300h by the end of their CPL (wild guess). Of course, I'd advise travelling to South Africa where the solo rate is around half of Aussie ones.

So here's the thing: Instead of spending 1.5 to 2 years instructing (800 hours/year) in C172, wouldn't it be financially wiser to borrow $150k while rates are low, rake in that flight time in a country where solo rates are cheaper within 4-6 months, land that first FO job at a regional and start earning better money faster?

Other option: buy a cheap C152 and do a flight time marathon in it. That's financially probably better that burning cash at a hire rate.

Your thoughts?
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 01:08
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Are there really people paying instructors between $19 and $40 per hour? A casual Grade Three should be getting $67.19. The gap between that and the hire and dual rate also has to cover their super, compo, uniforms, standardisation checks, insurance, the overheads of the school etc.

There are still some operators who do "sham contracting" and should be reported to Fair Work .
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 01:26
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop
Are there really people paying instructors between $19 and $40 per hour? A casual Grade Three should be getting $67.19. The gap between that and the hire and dual rate also has to cover their super, compo, uniforms, standardisation checks, insurance, the overheads of the school etc.

There are still some operators who do "sham contracting" and should be reported to Fair Work .
I did not claim that $19 per hour was for an instructor, but is pretty close to the Australian minimum wage for a full time/part time employee (generally for a 38 hour week and around 2,000 hours per year). So say $38,000 per year for zero skills.

Is there still a maximum time limit that an employee can have a pilot as a casual?
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 04:25
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Bend Alot
  • (e) On each occasion a casual pilot is required to attend work the pilot is entitled to minimum payment as follows:
[11.3(e)(i) substituted by PR503362 from 01Nov10]
  •  
    • (i) for a period of duty (including rostered stand-by) of four hours or less,a minimum payment of two hours;and
      (ii) for a period of duty (including rostered stand-by) exceeding four hours,a minimum of four hours.
    • Is the students instructor required to attend the students solo flight?
Yes, quite. You are correct. I was rushing out the door to go flying.
Presumably the instructor is on the premises and getting paid accordingly... but you would agree that the pay received is not directly related to the duration of the student's solo flight.
Okihara
If an applicant came to my company and said "I have 1500 hours of command time which I paid for myself and I would like a job, please" the answer would be a simple no. I would also be very surprised if any airline's answer would be any different. It's not a matter of hours, champ, it's a matter of EXPERIENCE. The hours, if gained in a commercial pilot context, are indicative (although not always correctly so) of exposure to a certain level and intensity of professional experience.

1500 hours of tooling around at your own expense and to your own devices, outside of any supervision, additional training, professional discipline, without formal guidance and mentoring strikes me as the worst possible gestation for a pilot who would presumably then be seeking a lifetime of employment within a system which has very high levels of supervision, ongoing training, professional discipline, formal guidance, and so on.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 04:57
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Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower
Bend Alot

Yes, quite. You are correct. I was rushing out the door to go flying.
Presumably the instructor is on the premises and getting paid accordingly... but you would agree that the pay received is not directly related to the duration of the student's solo flight.
Okihara
If an applicant came to my company and said "I have 1500 hours of command time which I paid for myself and I would like a job, please" the answer would be a simple no. I would also be very surprised if any airline's answer would be any different. It's not a matter of hours, champ, it's a matter of EXPERIENCE. The hours, if gained in a commercial pilot context, are indicative (although not always correctly so) of exposure to a certain level and intensity of professional experience.

1500 hours of tooling around at your own expense and to your own devices, outside of any supervision, additional training, professional discipline, without formal guidance and mentoring strikes me as the worst possible gestation for a pilot who would presumably then be seeking a lifetime of employment within a system which has very high levels of supervision, ongoing training, professional discipline, formal guidance, and so on.
Agree 100% that the payment is not directly related to the students flight.

But I disagree that a flat no, is warranted for a 1,500 hour pilot that has paid their way by being an aircraft owner of a C152 for what would be the best part of 3 years.

I would love to hear the unexpected stories of that adventure first - buying a plane is the cheap part!
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 05:37
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Originally Posted by Okihara
However I'm more interested in the fact that they'll clock in between around 15-16 hours of flight time a week which seems rather a low figure given that each day has roughly 8-10 hours of flyable time (granted: not in Mebourne at this time of the year ).
there used to be a 800 hr year limit for commercial pilots. If I log a 6 hour day of instructing flying I tend to sleep pretty soundly that night - it gets tiring.

You will find 800 hours a year a pretty full year.

Originally Posted by Okihara
So here's the thing: Instead of spending 1.5 to 2 years instructing (800 hours/year) in C172, wouldn't it be financially wiser to borrow $150k while rates are low, rake in that flight time in a country where solo rates are cheaper within 4-6 months, land that first FO job at a regional and start earning better money faster?
as mentioned by Horatio, a pilot who had 1500 hrs working as an instructor or other GA operator would be looked on more favourably than someone with 1500 hours all private flying.

Achieving an instructor rating (and also working as an instructor) will teach you a lot of things about aviation and flying, way beyond just hours in your log book.

That said, I would say, if all you want is just hours for a FO slot, don't do instructing. Do instructing (even if it is a stepping stone to 'bigger' things) because you think you will enjoy or learn from it. If you aren't that interested in instructing, look for another GA position that does interest you and build your hours and aviation experience there.

If doing instructing be aware you will need to pay for the instructor rating - they are not cheap and the course itself should not (if done properly) be easy - it should teach you a lot about flying, about how people think in a cockpit (and how to manage that) and also about yourself.

Originally Posted by Okihara
Other option: buy a cheap C152 and do a flight time marathon in it. That's financially probably better that burning cash at a hire rate.
Your thoughts?
remember to factor into your costs putting around 1400 hours of flying on the aircraft. That will be 14 x 100 hourly inspections and unless you bought it with a low hour engine and prop you likely will need to do a major engine + prop overhaul in that time - keeping aircraft flying is not cheap (although if you are doing bigger hours hours in a year it probably becomes cheaper to buy than hire but you would need to be doing at least 300+ hrs/year to make it worthwhile - and it can still bite you if you have unplanned maintenance costs)

MY thoughts are, if you really want to work in aviation, look at getting a entry level GA flying job (might be instructing if you think you would like it) rather than simply getting experience by flying privately.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 06:19
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These are all very interesting points. In fact, I'm more interested in understanding why the bloke in the right seat is there in the first place than out of personal interest in working in the aviation scene.

Are there other areas than GA for aspiring airline pilots who have received their CPL? Can they work in freight/cargo for instance? I'm guessing that instruction is not everyone cup of tea and that should be fine as long as they have other pathways to the clouds.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 06:35
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Freight/cargo is either GA or the aspiring point of an airline pilot.

There are many hour building jobs in the trades game - be a trade assistant that fly's the tradesman to the job. From hydraulics, air conditioners, plumbing, vets and IT to name a few.
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 22:57
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Originally Posted by Bend alot
Freight/cargo is either GA or the aspiring point of an airline pilot.

There are many hour building jobs in the trades game - be a trade assistant that fly's the tradesman to the job. From hydraulics, air conditioners, plumbing, vets and IT to name a few.
I think you will find that there is no such thing as trade assistant anymore. It has been knocked on the head years ago due to insurance reasons. Well...at least in NSW, don't know about the rest of the country. I have been warned by Fair Trading that I can only employ qualified personell.

Last edited by sms777; 18th Jun 2018 at 03:17. Reason: spelling
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 02:12
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What is the 1.25 factor for?

The 25% loading is because casual workers do not have sick or holiday pay entitlements.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 02:16
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The time is rapidly approaching where the entry level wage for a Commercial Instructor will need to be about $80,000 p.a. and rise to over $120k for advanced training work. If any Tradie can earn $70 to $90 per hour and get paid for total time on duty it should be a wake-up call that G.A. will need to offer similar conditions to attract and keep suitable people.
Sure, this will increase the cost of learning to fly, but savvy flight school operators are investing seriously large bucks in new aircraft to capture the market. Having a million dollar training fleet grounded due to lack of instructors will put someone out of business far quicker than doubling instructor wages. For students having to ultimately absorb these costs this is probably the first time in many years that career earning potential will quickly recoup the investment.

At Recreational PPL level small Mum and Pop operators running a couple of 40 year old bugsmashers won't be able to handle this, but it is hardly reason for professional instructors who have already invested over $100,000 and a couple of years' hard graft in their own future to settle for Macca's wages.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 02:53
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Hear hear Mach E A!
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 03:20
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It will be interesting come the 1st of September when the requirement for all RPT operators to have a Part 142 with trainers and checkers who hold FIRs comes into force.
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