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New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!

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New Fuel Rules! Land in a "field" what a joke!

Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:01
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https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/43380/...starvation.pdf
Found this worthwhile reading, high lighted some issues.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:08
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Sunfish, I'm just saying if you planned properly and did all the right things in flight but still ended up running short of fuel (unforecast fog at destination, blocked runway, fuel system malfunction, whatever) then you would be fine.

If you didn't do those things and got caught out, then you would rightly be called to explain yourself, not necessarily just to CASA but to the aircraft owner, the CP if it was a commercial flight, and your pax who you owe a duty of care to.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:18
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I'm surprised that there's so much angst over this. When common sense prevailed in GA, we were taught to uplift more fuel than we thought needed for any flight, provided it didn't compromise MTOW. Min 45 mins FR was the go. The longer the flight, the larger the FR, eg, for a 3-4 hrs flight - carry 60 mins FR. I've often thought about my 1st CP asking me the big question: 'is it smarter to carry extra fuel and be perhaps slightly over MTOW, or should you prudently uplift less fuel, only to find circumstances caused you to cut into the minimum FR and create a very sweaty situation'? Sometimes it's comforting to know that you have adequate fuel onboard, regardless of how it was achieved, ie the 17th cent (Kruschev?) rule of 'the end justifying the means' happy days,
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:30
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Isn't 'MAYDAY' = 'Grave and Imminent danger requiring immediate assistance'...? By Definition...?

So, are you in fact, in 'Grave and imminent' danger?

And can you 'exist', continue to 'survive', without requiring 'immediate' assistance..? ( Like....I'm gunna die- Right NOW! )

Then, isn't this supposed fuel 'situation' MAYDAY declaration illegal...?

Am I an idiot...?

Possibly.....???
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:45
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Originally Posted by Ex FSO GRIFFO View Post
Isn't 'MAYDAY' = 'Grave and Imminent danger requiring immediate assistance'...? By Definition...?

So, are you in fact, in 'Grave and imminent' danger?

And can you 'exist', continue to 'survive', without requiring 'immediate' assistance..? ( Like....I'm gunna die- Right NOW! )

Then, isn't this supposed fuel 'situation' MAYDAY declaration illegal...?

Am I an idiot...?

Possibly.....???
Griffo,
Are you old enough to remember Stan Freeberg, and his skit "St George and the DragonNet", aimed at the TV series Dragnet.
In part it goes something like:
St George ( in a Joe Friday voice): "I'm taking you in on a 402!! "
The dragon: "WWWWHAAATS a 402"
St. George: "Overacting".
Seems CASA want to mandate overacting on pain of criminal sanction.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 02:53
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Ya got me 'Leadie'......on a cuppla counts....

Yep...Old enuf....and to have survived this long, I must have been doin' sumphin' right.....

And...I'm with Mr 'Poteroo'.... either we both had the same instructor, or we were into the aviation game 'thingy' at about the same time when
'common sense' prevailed and 'airmanship' was the norm......

Cheers...
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 03:07
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With the average GA fuel gauge how does anybody know how much fuel they really have remaining? eg 45 v 30 minutes you wouldn't be able to tell I'd venture.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 03:19
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Whatís the point of having a reserve if you canít use it if you require it to be used.

Another 5% off brain power to make a change without the 95% of the brain power thatís required to know weee the 5%will take you.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 04:51
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Whatís the point of having a reserve if you canít use it if you require it to be used.


You can, in abnormal circumstances that you couldn't have reasonably foreseen. Poor planning or in-flight management doesn't qualify though, as I'm sure you already know.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 05:13
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Sorry, I don't see the problem.

It is obviously better to land in a field with some fuel on board than run out and be in a dead-stick situation. There therefore has to be a time when you are going to have to make the decision that you are not going to make your destination. It is a command decision where that is, and of course landing at an airfield with 25mins fuel on board is safer than landing in a paddock with 30- but how far are you going to push it?

Now, the piece I really can't see is why WOULDN'T you declare an emergency? Being at the point where fuel exhaustion is a possibility is obviously an urgent situation, and the idea that you'd keep quiet is irresponsible.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 06:24
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Originally Posted by Connedrod View Post
Whatís the point of having a reserve if you canít use it if you require it to be used.

Another 5% off brain power to make a change without the 95% of the brain power thatís required to know weee the 5%will take you.
You can use it- you just have to declare an emergency.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 07:17
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
What rule do I break if I plan to land with 45 minutes FFR then make an in-flight decision to instead land with 30? What rule? I think youíll find the answer is: No rule.

What is the safety issue if I decide to land with 30 minutes reserve, and I in fact land with 30 minutes reserve? The safety issue.

What if I decided from the start to land with 30 minutes reserve rather than 45, and in fact land with 30? If thatís not a safety issue, why does it become a safety issue if I instead planned to land with 45 minutes reserve then make an in-flight decision to land with 30 as a consequence of higher winds than forcecast, and in fact land with 30?

What is reserve fuel for?

Sorry, I was thinking of the old 45 minute reserve for pistons. In your case you didn't break a rule but it also wasn't a fixed reserve was it? Which goes back to the question, what is your actual fixed reserve? If you've planned to land with 45 then decide mid flight that 30 is ok, then you actually had 30 fixed and 15 contingency. The fact you didn't realise this in your own planning is a bit of a worry. Do you have a personal fuel policy or is it just a see what happens kind of thing? At what point do you decide to land at an en-route alternate for a top up? If you get to your destination with 30 and then have to dick around for 10 minutes for some unforeseen reason, do you feel nervous?

The purpose of the fixed reserve is to keep the fuel tank wet, once pilots get their head around that we'll have fewer RJ85s running out with a bunch of passengers on board.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 07:29
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
AOTW;

Of course they should be explaining themselves. However CASA will prosecute and these are offenses of strict liability.

To put it another way, you don't explain anything to CASA, it will simply be used as evidence against you.
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/strict-liability

Read the above, there are still defences against strict liability charges.

I really don't understand all this hand ringing because CASA are trying to get you to take the responsibility of keeping your fuel tanks wet seriously.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 08:42
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AerocatS2A,
True, there are defenses under strict liability --- honest and reasonable mistake ---- but it is a very high test, Lead Balloon is the best bloke to explain it to anybody, but miscalculation of your reserves or finding the wind component a bit off forecast would no cut it.

Rod the Con,
Typical post, revealing your in-depth understanding of aircraft design, certification and operation.

Again, a short summary, the concept of FFR is to ensure you have enough ACTUAL motion lotion remaining, that the engine(s) is/are running at touchdown.

Megam,
Spot on!! At least somebody understand the principles of "Order of Accuracy".

When I can fill the tanks of a certain light twin, and the truck total is only <5 litres short of the nominal tank capacity, it gives me the shivers. Yet, in once case we investigated in depth, the pilot's and ships records all showed there should have been about 50 litres,was example of the day all the pluses and minuses totaled as minuses ---- and I know the pilot well, he is no cowboy.

On another occasion, from the same flying school, different pilot,the PA-28 wound up in the yard of a factory at Villawood, a few miles short of YSBK.

The concept of FFR is a really good idea, most of us have been doing it for ever, now it's just got a new name.

Tootle pip!!

PS; How much do you really know about how much fuel you start with, even with "full tanks".
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 09:40
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
...If you've planned to land with 45 then decide mid flight that 30 is ok, then you actually had 30 fixed and 15 contingency. The fact you didn't realise this in your own planning is a bit of a worry. Do you have a personal fuel policy or is it just a see what happens kind of thing? At what point do you decide to land at an en-route alternate for a top up? If you get to your destination with 30 and then have to dick around for 10 minutes for some unforeseen reason, do you feel nervous?....
Can you not read? I said higher than forecast winds. How was I to ďrealiseĒ the winds were higher than forecast during planning?

My ďpersonal fuel policyĒ for reserve for a flight depends on many factors, such as whether the destination is in the middle of nowhere with no alternatives nearby. How many runways there are at the destination. Whether the weather at the destination is likely to be marginal. Whether thereís a human being on the end of the phone at the destination. Whether itís a 2 hour flight or a 4.5 hour flight. Whether....

On some flights I would feel nervous with under 45 and would divert, early, to keep the 45 minutes in tact. On some flights I couldnít care less if I landed with 29 minutes. Whatís the grave and imminent danger if Iím doing circuits on a gin clear day at an aerodrome thatís one of the many GA ghost towns out there, and at the end of my last landing Iíve 29 minutes useable left on board?

I know Australians crave prescription, but Iím comfortable with using my own judgment on a flight-by-flight basis. Once in 33 years of flying I landed with all of my planned reserve used up, due to in-flight miscalculation. Never again (I hope...).
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 09:45
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Originally Posted by Ex FSO GRIFFO View Post
Isn't 'MAYDAY' = 'Grave and Imminent danger requiring immediate assistance'...? By Definition...?

So, are you in fact, in 'Grave and imminent' danger?

And can you 'exist', continue to 'survive', without requiring 'immediate' assistance..? ( Like....I'm gunna die- Right NOW! )

Then, isn't this supposed fuel 'situation' MAYDAY declaration illegal...?

Am I an idiot...?

Possibly.....???
This is a common misconception. The 30 minutes reserve is based upon holding at 1500 ft clean.

Say you make an approach and need to go around because your gear indicator is inconclusive. You have gone from 30 minutes holding at 1500 ft clean to doing a dirty gear down low level circuit which transpires to less than 10 minutes of endurance. Fixed reserve is not 30 minutes in all situations.

A circuit in a heavy costs a lot of fuel and is not that quick.

i have bought a number of new aircraft, none of them have included the crystal ball to know in advance what is going to happen.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 11:33
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Can you not read? I said higher than forecast winds. How was I to ďrealiseĒ the winds were higher than forecast during planning?


You don't. That's why you have some contingency reserve; to cater for the unforeseen. When you plan do you not cater for a few unforeseen circumstances? Don't you have a plan B and maybe a plan C just in case things aren't as expected? Eating in to my fixed reserve is somewhere around plan D or E. For it to happen a whole lot of stuff has gone wrong, not just some headwinds.

My ďpersonal fuel policyĒ for reserve for a flight depends on many factors, such as whether the destination is in the middle of nowhere with no alternatives nearby. How many runways there are at the destination. Whether the weather at the destination is likely to be marginal. Whether thereís a human being on the end of the phone at the destination. Whether itís a 2 hour flight or a 4.5 hour flight. Whether....

On some flights I would feel nervous with under 45 and would divert, early, to keep the 45 minutes in tact. On some flights I couldnít care less if I landed with 29 minutes. Whatís the grave and imminent danger if Iím doing circuits on a gin clear day at an aerodrome thatís one of the many GA ghost towns out there, and at the end of my last landing Iíve 29 minutes useable left on board?

I know Australians crave prescription, but Iím comfortable with using my own judgment on a flight-by-flight basis. Once in 33 years of flying I landed with all of my planned reserve used up, due to in-flight miscalculation. Never again (I hope...).
I am also comfortable using my own judgement on a case by case basis. I guess the difference is that my judgement is about when to take MORE than the minimum fuel, not about when it's ok to eat into the minimum fuel. Your mileage obviously varies. Touch wood, I hope I don't have an experience similar to yours.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 12:06
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How many years have you been flying, AerocatS2A?

What is the average duration of your flights?

Your judgment strikes me as that of someone who doesn’t do much flying in the kinds of circumstances that I fly. Your judgment of me strikes me as that of someone who has a narrow range of experience.
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 12:59
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And furthermore, how high up the wall can you p***?
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Old 9th Jun 2018, 13:08
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Surely a Pan Pan call would suffice..inside FFR doesnít strike me as a bona fide emergency!? Then whatís left to declare when you actually run out of fuel??
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